Komtur

It seems to be a Wagner produced cross in gold. Very rare and nice

The advancement in the German armies follows the principle of seniority and capability. The seniority was well-defined by the date of enlistment as an officer in the army. The capability for the next higher level of rank was judged by the commander of an officer. From the beginning of the 19th century the German armies developed specific regulations who, when and with what content these Qualifkationsberichte had to issue. For more information about this complex theme I can recommend the book Untersuchungen zur Geschichte des Offizierskorps / Anciennität und Beförderung nach Leistung, Stuttgart 1962. Regards, Komtur.

Walter Eucken

On this site about the Crimea War Medal is stated: Fraudulently named medals to the highly desirable Light Brigade Chargers, the Heavy Brigade, 93rd Foot (Thin Red Line) have been faked with engraved or regimentally impressed naming. Could someone please show me, how especially the faked regimentally impressed namings look like? Thanks in advance, Komtur. over the years - Caveat Emptor !

Sorry, but this picture from a printed article was not ment for common use ... Regards, Komtur.

This one fits too.

The new list with some additions. RVO nach Nummern.pdf

Some additions followed. Unfortunately I can no more add them to the first post. Therefore here the new list: GCVO 01.05.1902 9 Wellington, 4th Duke of GCVO 22.08.1902 20 Laking, Francis Henry GCVO 25.04.1908 272 Kühnel, Arnold August Blichert GCVO 21.07.1909 293 Japan, Prince Kuni von GCVO 24.06.1911 315 Moore, Arthur William GCVO 04.02.1912 364 Charles, Richard Henry Havelock GCVO 26.01.1912 361 Rundle, Henry Macleod Leslie GCVO 23.06.1936 589 Murray, Malcolm GCVO 12.06.1947 339 Lascelles, Allan GCVO 02.01.1950 724 Macgeagh, Henry Davies Foster GCVO 19.06.1966 861 Nasser, Sharif Hussein bin GCVO 01.01.1976 952 Charteris of Amisfield, Martin Michael Charles GCVO 13.06.1998 1113 Ford, Edward KCVO 24.08.1900 ohne Stephen, Alexander Condie KCVO 00.07.19011 keine namentliche Zuordnung KCVO 23.07.1901 3 (cross) K3 (star) Bennett, William Henry KCVO 11.08.1903 52 Fawkes, Wilmot Hawksworth KCVO 15.06.1905 K102 Egerton, Alfred Mordaunt KCVO 10.06.1908 K136 Orloff, Prince Vladimir KCVO 09.11.1908 42 Gildea, James KCVO 19.06.1911 260 Wodehouse, Edwin Frederick KCVO 26.09.1913 K273 Robertson, William Robert (1931 Rückgabe nach Aufstieg zum GCVO) KCVO 03.06.1918 K340 (cross) 340 (star) Worthington, Edward Scott KCVO 29.07.1925 K464 FitzMaurice, Maurice Swynfen KCVO 03.06.1931243 Harwood, Ralph Endersby KCVO 26.09.1931 K526 Hendry, Alexander KCVO 01.01.1932 K273 Baillie, Albert Victor (zurückgegebene Insignie von W. Robertson) KCVO 01.01.1932 543 Levita, Cecil Bingham KCVO 04.06.1934 558 Eliot, Montague Charles KCVO 19.07.1935 K576 Boyd, Harry Robert KCVO 11.05.1937 593 Still, George Frederic KCVO 08.06.1939 K624 Ponsonby, George KCVO 10.06.1948 K670 Kerr, Howard KCVO 01.01.1949 K632 (cross) 632 (star) Colles, Ernest Dudley Gordon KCVO 05.06.1952 701 Barrington-Ward, Victorr Michael KCVO 20.10.1957 K819 Spender, Percy Claude KCVO 02.06.1962 K815 Lloyd, Humphrey Clifford KCVO 10.06.1961 K892 Smallpeice, Basil KCVO 18.05.1965 952 Oeftering, Heinz Maria KCVO 14.02.1966 960 Stow, John Montague KCVO 12.06.1976 1165 Fleming, William Launcelot Scott KCVO 11.06.1977 1186 Cave, Richard Philipp CVO 00.07.1901 1 keine namentliche Zuordnung CVO 11.10.1901 C10 Vanden-Bempde-Johnstone, Alan CVO 22.08.1902 C40 Hervey, Frederick Alfred John CVO 11.08.1903 C104 Maxwell, John Grenfell CVO 10.02.1904 C41 Waller, Stanier CVO 15.04.1907 C305 Hall, Francis Henry CVO 10.06.1908 C384 Hamilton of Dalzell, 2nd Baron CVO 24.06.1909 C483 Harrison, Charles Edward CVO 29.06.1910 C460 Gilmour, Robert Gordon CVO 14.06.1912 C540 Ninnis, Belgrave CVO 25.06.1912 C530 Watson, James Kiero CVO 07.07.1922 C761 Newport, Alexander Charles William CVO 14.05.1923 C780 Down, Richard Thornton CVO 03.06.1925 C740 Gore, St. John Corbet CVO 16.10.1925 C564 Hope, Herbert Willes Webley CVO 27.06.1927 C864 Hodgson, Patrick Kirkman CVO 03.06.1927 C861 Lloyd, Wilford Neville CVO 06.07.1927 C85 Ingram, Alexander Gordon CVO 03.06.1931 C484 Russell, Reginald Edmund Maghlin CVO 02.01.1933 C846 Chitty, Walter Willis CVO 04.06.1934 C921 Share, Hamnet Holdtich CVO 11.05.1937 C974 Gibbs, Lancelot Merivale CVO 01.01.1944 C1065 Bowden, John CVO 08.06.1950 1129 Howe, Ronald Martin CVO 01.01.1952 1145 Jones, Oscar Philip CVO 01.01.1954 C826 Bingley, Robert Albert Glanville CVO 16.02.1956 1254 McLaughlan, Roy James Philip CVO 24.10.1971 1765 Edmonds, John Christopher CVO 01.01.1973 1851 Hill, Ronald John CVO 15.06.1974 1888 Treby, Leslie Alfred John CVO 15.06.1996 2487 Parsons, Kenneth William MVO4 11.05.1896 ohne Hoskyns, Peyton MVO4 00.08.1901 1 keine namentliche Zuordnung MVO4 24.12.1901 34 Childs-Clarke, Charles MVO4 22.08.1902 88 Wyatt, Thomas Henry MVO4 09.11.1902 104 Harbord, Charles MVO4 21.04.1903 112 Warren, Herbert Augustus MVO4 09.10.1903 188 Mundy, Godfrey Harry Brydges MVO4 05.05.1904 238 Burr, John Leslie MVO4 01.07.1904 229 Stanley, Victor Albert MVO4 01.07.1904 308 Gilbert, Friedrich MVO4 12.08.1904 247 Pasley, Thomas Hamilton Sabine MVO4 13.07.1905 351 Walsh, George Harry William MVO4 11.09.1905 21 Tully, Thomas MVO4 11.03.1906 430 White, Herbert Southey Neville MVO4 15.03.1906 467 Hume, Charles Vernon MVO4 05.06.1906 463 Bird, Stanley MVO4 25.04.1908 227 Vaughan, John Charles Tudor MVO4 05.04.1909 701 Cameron, John Ewen MVO4 29.04.1909 698 Williamson, Adolphus Huddlestone MVO4 19.10.1910 789 Williams, Walter Kent MVO4 07.01.1911 806 Grant, Robert Sidney Francis MVO4 12.04.1911 809 Beasley, Francis Adams MVO4 24.07.1911 866 Waddington, Charles Willoughby MVO4 17.10.1911 90 Way, Bromley George Vere MVO4 12.12.1011 887 Bamber, Charles James MVO4 12.12.1911 903 Creagh, Henry Dopping MVO4 04.01.1912 877 Fraser, Hugh Joseph MVO4 10.01.1912 876 Buist, Arthur Hunter MVO4 04.02.1912 824 Goodenough, William MVO4 14.06.1912 912 Cuthbertson, Edward Boustead MVO4 24.04.1914 914 Hodge, Michael Henry MVO4 22.06.1914 921 Terry, Robert Joseph Atkinson MVO4 09.07.1915 82 Faviell, Douglas MVO4 01.11.1915 933 Williamsm, Thomas Christopher Harry MVO4 15.08.1916 931 Sheppard, Eustace Graham MVO4 15.08.1916 959 James, Alfred Henry Cotes MVO4 14.07.1917 1019 Thresher, James Henville MVO4 02.08.1919 1066 Reyne, Gerard van Rossum MVO4 21.05.1920 ohne Rhodes, Arthur Tahu Gravenor MVO4 27.02.1921 595 Poynder, Frederick Sinclair MVO4 03.06.1922 1137 Nimmo, Frank Hutton MVO4 07.07.1922 1134 Corson, Eric Reid MVO4 03.06.1924 1058 Miles, George Edward MVO4 01.01.1925 1052 Bowes-Lyon, Ronald George MVO4 10.08.1925 1211 Commander Kenneth Michell MVO4 27.06.1927 1275 Moore, Norman Cameron MVO4 07.08.1927 1218 Griffiths, George MVO4 23.08.1930 1304 Bardwell, William Scott MVO4 01.01.1931 1313 Fellowes, Edmund Horace MVO4 10.08.1931 1305 Denison, Edward Conyngham MVO4 08.08.1932 1307 Woodhall, Eric Langton MVO4 21.11.1934 1330 Quill, Raymond Humphery MVO4 23.07.1937 1389 Onslow, Richard Francis John MVO4 08.06.1939 536 Birdwood, Christopher Bromhaed MVO4 24.06.1943 1419 Gault, James Frederick MVO4 01.01.1945 1450 Stainton, Lewis MVO4 01.01.1947 1526 Stone, Albert William MVO4 01.01.1952 1557 Ratcliffe, Egbert Edwin MVO4 31.12.1983 2845 Gost, Leonard John MVO5 28.05.1901 ohne Clarke, Edward Stanley MVO5 00.10.1901 1 keine namentliche Zuordnung MVO5 11.10.1901 5 Stirn, Rudolph Adam MVO5 09.11.1902 ohne Brett, Maurice Vyner Balliol MVO5 11.08.1903 44 Fitzhugh, Terrick Charles MVO5 12.12.1911 428 Jones, Frederick Theodore MVO5 04.02.1912 375 Green, Benjamin Stevens MVO5 22.06.1914 439 Sotheby, Herbert George MVO5 11.10.1920 522 Newmarch, Henry Clarence MVO5 07.07.1922 529 Fairfield, Samuel MVO5 07.07.1922 530 Enright, Daniel Patrick Joseph MVO5 05.08.1922 578 Gordon, David Russell MVO5 02.06.1923 542 Joist, Henry John Thomas MVO5 03.06.1931 571 Crouch, Walter George Collingwood MVO5 03.06.1932 586 Harwood, Captain Robert MVO5 29.07.1932 589 Barrett, Henry Gulliver MVO5 11.05.1937 599 Evans, Alfred William MVO5 30.10.1945 695 Skipworth, Alber MVO5 01.01.1946 700 Wakeham, Frank MVO5 10.06.1948 744 Dadd, Frederick James MVO5 16.07.1956 646 Taylor, Geoffrey Lyndon MVO5 28.10.1958 732 Rathje, Otto MVO5 02.06. 1973 723 Aubrey, Ronald Henry MVO5 01.01.1969 1186 Hawkins, Charles Edward MVO5 03.06.1978 1487 Schopmann, Edward Victor Dames of RVO GCVO 16.06.1990 L.43 Smith, Patricia CVO 11.05.1937 C1 L Colville, Helen Cynthia CVO 11.05.1937 C2 L Graham, Helen Violet CVO 11.05.1937 C4L Watson, Edith Margaret CVO 30.04.1974 L.82 Armfelt, Wava Kitty MVO4 11.05.1937 2L Howland, Cicely MVO4 11.05.1937 4L Davies, Rosina MVO4 01.01.1966 42L Minto, Sheila Allison MVO4 25.06.1990 L107 Bjarnadottir, Vigdis MVO5 01.01.1967 L103 de Rohan, Dolores Malita MVO5 03.06.1978 L93 Hill, Sonia

Many thanks for this very interesting addition. It shows, that there was a notification of the serial number of the order on the Orders Chancellery papers. As mentioned above, it therefore should be easy for the office staff, to correlate a numbered insignia to a person - if they condescend to do so ... Kind regards, Komtur.

The nice group of the Honorary Member 5th Class of the Royal Victorian Order for the station master at Homburg v. d. H. Rudolph Stirn brought me again to the point, to speculate about the numbering of this order. Because of the often personalized British decoration, it is possible to relate the numbering of this order in medal groups to a person and a awarding date. More difficult is the situation for Honorary Members, where we need more information by documents, as e. g. we have for Rudolph Stirn. There already seems to exist lists, where collectors tried to relate these numbers to awarding dates. Unfortunately I was not able to get access to these lists. Surprisingly it was possible in a relatively short time, to find a few personalized groups of Knights and Members of the Royal Victorian Order by searching the internet. I arranged these by the awarding date. In this way one get a frame work of some use for ranging a numbered order referring its fabrication period. Especially for groups of Honorary Members it can help to identify the owner by using other sources. Numbers not fitting in the numerical order could be the result of returned and again issued insignia. On the other hand it is not certain, if the Orders Chancellery dispense the decorations always and in consequence by the numerical order of the insignia. The emission dates of the insignia marked with No. 1 is taken from the book The Royal Victorian Order by Peter Galloway. I would be glad, if someone could add the still existing lists or single data of other personalized groups of numbered Royal Victorian Orders. Member versus Honorary Member GCVO 01.05.1902 9 Wellington, 4th Duke of GCVO 12.06.1947 339 Lascelles, Sir Allan KCVO 00.07.1901 1 no personalization KCVO 03.06.1931 243 Harwood, Ralph Endersby KCVO 18.05.1965 952 Oeftering, Heinz Maria KCVO 11.06.1977 1186 Cave, Richard Philipp CVO 00.07.1901 1 no personalization CVO 22.08.1902 C40 Hervey, Frederick Alfred John CVO 14.06.1912 C540 Ninnis, Belgrave CVO 24.10.1971 1765 Edmonds, John Christopher CVO 01.01.1973 1851 Hill, Ronald John MVO4 11.05.1896 without Hoskyns, Peyton MVO4 00.08.1901 1 no personalization MVO4 01.07.1904 229 Stanley, Victor Albert MVO4 01.07.1904 308 Gilbert, Friedrich MVO4 19.10.1910 789 Williams, Walter Kent MVO4 24.07.1911 866 Waddington, Charles Willoughby MVO4 12.12.1011 887 Bamber, Charles James MVO4 12.12.1911 903 Creagh, Henry Dopping MVO4 10.01.1912 876 Buist, Arthur Hunter MVO4 21.5.1920 without Rhodes, Arthur Tahu Gravenor MVO4 08.06.1939 536 Birdwood, Christopher Bromhaed MVO4 01.01.1947 1526 Stone, Albert William MVO5 28.05.1901 without Clarke, Edward Stanley MVO5 00.10.1901 1 no personalization MVO5 11.10.1901 5 Stirn, Rudolph Adam MVO5 09.11.1902 without Brett, Maurice Vyner Balliol MVO5 11.08.1903 44 Fitzhugh, Terrick Charles MVO5 04.02.1912 375 Green, Benjamin Stevens MVO5 22.06.1914 439 Sotheby, Herbert George MVO5 11.05.1937 599 Evans, Alfred William MVO5 02.06. 1973 723 Aubrey, Ronald Henry MVO5 01.01.1969 1186 Hawkins, Charles Edward MVO5 03.06.1978 1487 Schopmann, Edward Victor

Eduard Bornhausen RVO5 15th of June 1907 as Lieutenant and Adjutant Infantery Regiment von Goeben No. 28 on the occasion of unveiling of statue of field marshal teh Duke of Cambridge in London. (Risk, Pownall, Stanley and Tamplin: Roayl Service Vol. II, p. 228)

If you sometimes decide, to give this portrait away, I would be glad to buy it

Kanalbauinspektor Friedrich Gilbert 15. Juni 1895: Preußen, Roter Adlerorden 4. Klasse 1. Juli 1904: Großbritannien, Viktoria-Orden 4. Klasse 19. August: Preußen, 1904 Kronenorden 3. Klasse 21. Juli 1905: Oldenburg, Hausorden Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse 6. November 1909 (Tragegenehmigung veröffentlich): Russland, St. Annenorden 3. Klasse

Unfortunately not.

Another one.

Hucke got the 4th class in 1868. Unfortunately these early editions of the Ordens-Listen did not mention the exact date of the awards. Regards, Komtur.

If you tell me the name, I can give you the date.

The bow indicates, (1) that the Person wearing the 3rd class was awarded the 4th class of the Red Eagle Order before and (2) that he is a Prussian subject. The Oakleaves indicate (1) that the Person wearing this order was awarded all lower classes of the Red Eagle Order before and (2) that he is a Prussian subject. Regards, Komtur.

The duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha gave his house order liberally to his former people even after 1918. Therefore it´s quite possible, that a servant or someone similar later in a lower middle-sized class position got the knight 2nd class.

Nice find indeed

Yes.

The document confirms my suspicion, when an why the reclaim of orders stopped. The investigations were difficult and often without success. It was stopped to disburden the administration (Um die Verwaltung ... zu entlasten ...).

The official decision was in 1913 (see document 1 in #8). But as written in this document too, there was a long time before without an offical instruction a custom, to left the Iron Crosses of 1870 by request with the family: ... wie sie für das Eiserne Kreuz wegen der Zurückbehaltung durch die Hinterbliebenen bereits in Übung ist. An example for this custom exercised in 1894 (!) are the documents 3/4/5 and the medal bar of Dr. König in #8. These show the same procedure as in your document of 1910.

In the end it was a question of effort and profit. It seems the administrative effort, to find out, who of the deceased person got the relevant medals or orders decades before and then force the famliy to return these decoration, wasn´t economically efficient. This was especially valid for the severe later war years. Then the administration simply had other problems.

The so called Abwicklungsstelle der früheren General-Ordenskommission took after 1918 also the silver Red Eagle Order 4th class back. It seems, after 1938 they were mainly interested in gold, even if it was only a small amount, as for the Crown Order 4th classes thin medaillon. Yes, see above. As directed in 1913 by the Prussian King, the bravery awards could be left with the surviving members of the family: Ferner erteile ich der bezüglich vor dem Feinde erworbenen Orden und Ehrenzeichen der General-Ordenskommission die gleiche Erlaubnis, wie sie für das Eiserne Kreuz wegen der Zurückbehaltung durch die Hinterbliebenen bereits in Übung ist. I am quite sure, that similar regulations were determined by the German States as parts of the Weimarian Republic, wich succeeded the former monarchies in the matter of law and right (e.g. Bavaria, Saxony ...), even if I can´t prove it with documents. In case of the Iron Cross it was codified earlier, that by request the medal could be left with the family. The exact date of this regulation I unfortunately do not remember, but I could search for it in the documents. But I can show by the documents for the Iron Cross on the noncombatant ribbon of Dr. König an example, how this was performed by the General-Ordens-Commission.