Alex K

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Did anyone manage to get to the Duxford flying legends display this 11th/12th July? It was truly amazing as usual. Spitfires by the dozen, Hurricanes, Mustangs, B25's, B17's Mr Bleriot in his replica (Flying) machine, actually floating up in the air, For me it was the FW190 which was down as a static display only but in the end flew, together with an ME 109 in a spectacular co-ordinated display, in unison with all the other Spitfires,Hurricanes and Mustangs, so many aircraft in the air at the same time, awesome!!

Thankyou for the information. I'm no expert on collar tabs but from what I've seen, there are many variations and colours! regards Alex

Actually reminds me more of the Canadian memorial cross, ((or is it called the Mothers cross in Canada), not to be confused with the TR MK)) http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Havn't I seen the "Space Rangers" wearing something very similar!!

Hi Jeff, keep at it, it gets easier the more you do! regards Alex

Very interesting, never seen that before. The Cross in the link you mentioned is a really nice piece. regards Alex

Hi David, thanks for the reply, your piece is a very nice example of what is now recognised as be an early piece, core type "A" to borrow a description from another site (Didn't know the difference when I bought mine from Graf Klenau in Germany at the time 1980's, No GMIC, WAF etc. as a reference). As I mentioned in my earlier response these may well have been made from original wartime stock, die flaws included and as such gain a certain kudos as they were the "Sons" of their original parents, if you get my drift. The one I posted does have a magnetic core and fits very closely to the one which started this thread, so where it sits chronologically I couldn't say, maybe 70's, no maker mark or stamp. I think the point I was trying to make was the distinction between "Official" and "Authorised " ones. In my opinion (And it's mine) is that whilst an award can be authorised, it doesn't make it "Official". I say this because if you follow threads on this site and WAF for example, there is the perception that the 57'ers are somehow awarded by the current (then) government, which wasn't the case, all they did was re-authorise their wear without any offending/illegal symbols. In the end a 1990's "Bling" version has the same legal? validity as an original 1957 one, as it follows the guideline set out in the original 1957 order, it just doesn't look as nice. maybe I'm wrong and would welcome comments regards Alex K

Hi Darrell, as I said in my first post, comments made were my own and may not reflect the general consensus about 57'ers, and were not meant to unhelpful To me it becomes a muddy area with regards to exactly how they should be viewed, official, in my opinion no, as they weren't issued by the government unlike the pre 45 ones, tightly controlled and awarded by the PKZ thus being official goverment awards. Replacement awards, yes as they were authorised pieces, in their de-nazified form they were "Authorised" for wear, but does that then make them "Official"?, IMHO no. The Pinnacle for 57 collectors IS to obtain an early version, as the chances are they were made by the same manufacturers as their wartime versions, possibly from left over stock, (Hence the growing discussions over MM's and die flaws etc) and as such they gain a certain kudos with collectors, particularly as you state to a known attributable recipient, (Which will inffluence prices) and to be fair if I was still in the market for one, I would go for an early version myself, (How much I would pay, ??) With regards to price generally you are quite right, it seems anything, particulalry from the wartime period has seen in some cases stupid increases, The one I posted which cost me 40 Euros, I look at it and say to myself, would I pay $1k for it? No, but then I suppose costs are relative. The danger here is if my cross ended up on Ebay or similar for $1k and someone paid that for it, it's sets a precedent in that all of these are now worth that best regards Alex

Thanks for all the positive comments, It does become slightly addictive Alex

Hi Uwe, Darrell, our responses obviously crossed over somewhere before posting. I will freely admit that my comments are my personal views and may not be shared by others. To me "Official" means sanctioned and awarded by the governent of the day, their manufacture and quality, closely controlled to a given level (57'ers weren't ) Post war versions merely followed guidelines laid down by the ruling authorities at the time, ie it will look something like this, will have this and won't have that. how you do it is left to you. So in the end, a piece made in 1957 or the same piece made in 2009, which looks like it fell out of a Xmas cracker are one and the same, or is the 2009 version a fake of the 1957 version?? best regards Alex

Hi Darrell, I wasn't trying to be negative. I, like many others who collects EK's etc would love to own a legitimate 39-45 RK for example to a known recipient with full provenance etc etc etc, unfortunately prices are out of this world and to me is now an unrealistic goal, so an acceptable alternative is a 57 version. (That's why I got myself one) 57'ers are now also begining to command prices which to me, personally are becoming unrealistic, in the sense that they were not controlled to the same level as their pre-45 parents and could be made by anyone with the facilities to produce them, how many were made? who knows?. I would agree that early versions produced for the genuine recipient of a pre 45 cross and here we are talking 50's 60's period could be judged to be a "Real" replacement piece (Although not official) which may have been worn by the trager, the same could be argued about the 57 versions of the PLM made by S & L, official or just a nice bauble The piece I posted was originally purchased as an original, I wouldn't have a clue if it is, the point being from my perspective, I didn't pay a lot for it so I've not lost a lot should it be shown to be a "Fake" but a fake of what?, a never officially sanctioned award. To my mind, a fake is something which perports to be something else, to decieve, 57'ers are just a de-nazified version of their pre-45 predessesors and available to anyone who wanted to buy one, recipient or not. Doesn't have the same kudos as an offically presented pre-45 version to my mind. In the end, the value of any item is no more than a person is willing to pay for it. Pay $1K for a 57 RK, and then try to re-sell it and see what happens. I could of course be completely wrong best regards, sorry for the ramblings Alex K

Hi Uwe you raise some very good points, 57 versions were merely replacement pieces authorised for use by recipients without the offending symbol, and were not issued or awarded by the government, so as I understand it, they cannot be "Official" but an accepted version in accordance with the statutes issued at the time in terms of appearance, providing the manufacturer followed the guidelines as issued, it didn't really matter if they were produced by a large company or "Oma & opa" in their garage The "Grey area" has unfortunately manifested itself with regards to collectors, in the sense that during the 50,60, and possibly 70's, certain manufacturers re-struck these awards specifically for veterans who may have wanted to wear them, using tools, methods etc similar or the same as those used prior to 1945, this has, over time,given them "Official" legitimacy. To add to the confusion, as these early pieces now become more desirable and collectible,as is usual, everyone has decided that there is money to be made by reproducing these purely for the collector and not recipient, so these type of awards are then termed "Fakes",? You are quite right, made in 1957/2009, neither can be an official or fake, as it follows the guidelines laid down. I also have one very, very similar to the one which started this post, obtained in the early 80's from a respected medal dealer (Graf Klenau von Klenova). I havn't got a clue if it's a "Genuine" one or not. To me its an example of a RK des EK, sometimes called the second pattern oaks. It doesn't in the end matter to me as it cost me the princely sum of 40 Euros. ($1K? )? The one posted appears to be a piece which was not created speciically for the collectors market but I could be wrong. regards Alex

Hi Jeff nice work, your work is very good, particularly your medal bars Alex?

Hubert Schmundt

Hi I thought I'd have a KM day . regards Alex Erich Raeder Freidrich Guggenberger

Hi Roman, no problems, so the last picture you posted is of an old Imperial award (St Olga) as opposed to a modern version, I must be honest not seen it before. If that's the case I see the similarities. regards Alex Edit, was the original award given for the same purpose?

Hi Roman sorry I wasn't trying to be controversial, just to say it's not a completely new thing and has been done before, that is encouraging large families, albeit by a previous and despicable regime. That being said, the last image you posted appears to have different central motifs to the earlier ones, although the images are small, one appears to show the imperial Russian Eagle best regards Alex K

Didn't someone do this before!!

Congrats, nice length of ribbon to boot! Alex

Hi would any one know which branch of the SA would be indicated by a collar tab with 21/16L on it and if so which colours would they be?. Thanks

Thanks very much regards Alex K

reverses

Greetings all. I have the attached pair of St Sava's.4th & 5th classes, no discernable makers marks, any ideas as to who they may have been made by. All comments appreciated regards Alex