Les

Who has buttonhole mini's with maker names on the button? Godet? Too common. Who has some unusual ones? Let's see the backsides (and the fronts). Les

Marshall, Well it has seen better days, but all in all it's got character and with non-combattant EK on a Frack bar, we can't always be too picky. ;-) Les

Ralph, nice. Some of the Silesian birdies were made after the Weimar period. I have an LDO example with a clam-shell screwback I've posted before. For those who didn't see it the first time, here it is one last time. Les

Gerd, Richtig! That was his unit, and Adolf never fought or served around Verdun. Les

Mike, Dies are normally used for striking items, and struck pieces don't necessarily shrink after being formed. Mould and dies are not the same, and moulded items used for castings, do have associated shrinkage. Dies can be made without shrinkage, using an "original". Engraved original dies are seldom used for production work, instead a series of "hub" dies or copies are made that are often used in turn for making the actual production dies. "Shrinkage" does not necessarily occur as part of the die duplication process. Can a die be made from a "original" ? Yes, not only in theory, but in practise. To provide a case in point, here's an example of one rarely used technique that I don't mind providing because it's "colorful" and other than being dangerous to use, destroys the original in the process.. Ever hear of a process called explosive die forming ? At one time, the process was used to make quick and dirty copies of items (usually coins for the counterfeit market). Here's a crude explanation of the process: take a length of steel pipe and two steel blanks just wide enough to fit inside the pipe. Place the item you want to copy between the blanks and insert them into the pipe. At both ends, a small amount of explosives is packed. Set your fuses, scoot to a safe distance and detonate. The shockwave from the explosion (provided it is symmetrical) should slap the blanks together with sufficient force to impress a perfect copy of the coin in the blanks. As you may imagine the original item will be destroyed in the process. The blanks can then be used to die strike more of whatever the item was. An expensive technique and if the dual explosions are not timed just right, you end up with a destroyed original and no dies. Whatever flaws or characteristics the item has, if the process is done correctly, will be transfered directly to the dies made by the process. That's the "old" method. The modernized version of that process involves computer controlled timing that ensures two forces being applied equally from both sides towards the center of the "original" or item being used to form the dies. The technology is there to make some copies that -look- identical, and may have the same exact measurements. While Deumer's dies might have survived to the present, that doesn't necessarily mean the dies are still useable. Metal components in old firearms over time may begin to develop structural changes within the metal. For example, bolt stops and other parts on old broomhandle Mausers might look perfectly fine and "safe" but over a century or more, have sometimes degraded on a molecular level that firing an old broomhandle Mauser with all original parts is asking for trouble. 80 year old dies may look the same, but are they still structurally sound to take the force of trip hammer blows exceeding 10 metric tonnes and produce hundreds of strikes? Maybe, maybe not. Engraving new dies would be expensive. Having new working copies of dies made isn't as expensive as you think, and doesn't require old dies being modified to fit new presses, etc. Les

Mike, You don't need to have -original- dies to make copies of dies. There are ways of making almost exact copies of "new" dies from original items. Please don't ask for details (no reason to opnely tip off people who might be thinking about who to get a start in the "business"....), but there are ways to make a "new die" for either -stamping- silver frames and/or moulds for casting frames, that use an original item. If someone used a damaged EK and removed the core that core could be used. In the past, heavy attention has usually been paid to the details of the cores, with less attention paid to the frames, frame/beading flaws,.etc. As a result, people making fakes have usually focused on the core details (not so with those people in Eastern Europe and the old muffin crowns), knowing that collectors usually didn't look at the frames. Collectors have awakened to the fact that frames can tell us more than we once thought... I suspect what we're seeing here, is either a recycled old core either removed from a damaged original and inserted into a "new frame", or two newly made cores and frames that have been merged either by accident or intention to create a new "variant" to sucker dealers and collectors. Les

This site is definitely worth a visit for those who are trying to learn what the various pre-1930's Imperial (and a few other) ribbons look like and to identify them on ribbon (and medal) bars. I don't know how permanent the link is, and how long it will be on-line. That being said, printing out (or archiving a digital copy for personal use only) is something to consider. It's a large file, but worth the look-see. http://s115255626.alturo-host.de/adl/bander.htm and thanks to the folks that posted it: http://www.ordensmuseum.de/ Les

Marc, -nice-, very nice acquisitions and as always super photography ! Les

I hope that was taken mostly as tongue in cheek, and that I wasn't claiming a new type of badge..... There's limits to how reliable line drawings when comparing them to actual badges. The artist (or more likely a draughtsman) at times makes specific decisions to enhance features by increasing the amount of shadow or line-work...or even whether to add what passes for reflected light. The person doing the line drawing makes certain decisions on what to enhance, play down, and subtly or not sets up an image of what details he is trying to get the viewer to see...or not see. I'm not interested in a spin-off thread of carrying the point any further, other than to say there are limits to the uses of line drawings and we should be careful saying that renderings are "exact" or precise enough to use as the basis for claiming new types, or claiming justification for a type that might not exist at all. That's it. No more from me on that subject within this thread, unless someone else wants to move it and there's an interest in continuing the general problem of line drawings and "reality" elsewhere. Les

In the photo here, is a badge that almost everyone calls a post-WWII reproduction (and a bad one at that). Now, look at the two lines in the upper left hand corner of the badge. Is this a bad repro based on a bad line drawing from an S&L catalgoue, or is it a badly made pre-war badge that looks like a fake item...? In an old 1960's copy of Cross and Cockade, one of these same exact badges is shown in an article. The article claimed it was owned by a former German flier who got it as a replacement (sometime around the start of WWII) as a "replacement" badge to wear instead of his original 1914-1918 badge. I was inclined to write the story off as exactly that....a story. If we accept the idea that the 1939 S&L catalogues were based on actual photos and that rendering of details is accurate, then what about the two parallel lines on the pilot's badge? Are those really present on some S&L badge, or are they merely artisitic "license" used to enhance the drawing? Is the attached badge shown in the photo here representative of a real type, or...a fake? Comments appreciated. :-) Les

Rick, I'm not certain how reliable line drawings are at times. In the exact same S&L catalogue, is this graphic showing two WWI type fligth badges. Here's the drawing..... Note the pilot's badge with the angled lines in the upper left hand part of the badge. The observers' badge has sworls on the badge body, and there are short lines shown on the enamelled signal flag attachment. Is that an exact rendition, or an artist using a little leeway to allow certain details to be shown better? Now...please look at the next post.

I saw the bar, however, the quality of the photos the seller posted wasn't all that great and I wasn't certain it was real or not. Let's hope that it's real and not a heaping helping of fake stuff.... Les

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp Here's an interesting home application of electrolysis to remove rust on items. (I found it through a link on a cooking site dealing with conditioning Dutch ovens.) This would work well on items dug up from battlefields, or generally really trashed out items. Some on the forum may find this link and the step by step process useful for other problems around the house or something in the garage. Les

I like the idea of including -additional- photos of bonafide originals, or at least better photos of some of the fuzzier or less clear examples in "H & S.". Perhaps some of the forum members would agree to let Paul use some of their photos as a start? Les

One point to remember in much of the "intolerance" towards specific creeds other than state supported faiths, is that the German states in general didn't have a great deal of tolerance for some of the smaller and "heretical" Protestatnt creeds such as Calvinism, Baptists, Mormons, and assorted "others" who didn't share some of the basic state oriented ideas held by Catholicism and Lutheranism. Arguably, you could get away with being an agnostic or aetheist provided you were a staunch supporter of the state, monarch, and established status quo. And you didn't scare the horses..... If Berlin was looking for papers to show a nominal affiliation with one faith or another, "conversion" and "baptism" might be outward signs that a non-Christian (or non-believer in anything) might not take seriously and go along with because it meant better chances of upward mobility. In the horse related vein of comments, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can ask a man to convert, but you can't make him believe.... What did Loeb do? We don't know. Details would be good to have. We know Loeb was born in 1850, and that he was old enough to have been part of the Franco-Prussian War. Did Loeb actually obtain his commission through a cavalry unit, or like some, start off in an infantry unit, and then transfer to a cavalry unit? There were a couple of routes to a commission in the various state armies, and before speculating further on what Loeb did, some additional details would be good. Les

Museum storage boxes with acid free papers are expensive items, but worth considering if you are storing historically important and/or valuable items. Plastic boxes are usually not a good idea because they contain oils and other chemicals that can affect the chemical stability of materials stored in them. In a "pinch" situation, they are better than nothing at all. Even with museum boxes, you might wish to think about wrapping any cloth items in two or three wrapped laters of new, clean all cotton cloth. The cloth not only provides a barrier between the item and the walls of the storage container, but support for picking the item up when taking it out of, or putting it in the box. Picking the item up with a cloth wrapping around it, can be similar to moving an injured person on a stretcher. One item per box only. Don't be tempted to place two or more items in the same container. Items don't need to be weighed down by anything else other than their own weight...if even that. Try to keep items as flat as possible, without any folds. Folds and seam lines can eventually result in weak areas in the cloth or fabric, and tears or breaks can (and do) develop. Flat storage takes up space, but there are times when there isn't that much space. If you need to put something in a smaller container than the overall size of the object, either loosely roll it without putting any folds or creases along the sides, or...very loosely "dump" the item into the box and try not to cause any folds or creases. The item will develop light wrinkles if left in the box for a long time, so it should be taken out every few months and checked, and then put back so that no permanent creases or wrinkles have the chance to form. Stuffing garments, hats, etc, with paper so the item can keep it's shape is a bad idea, simply because most papers contain a high acid content and over time the acid will begin to affect the item. Clean all cotton cloth or cotton-wool is a better option for padding or stuffing. On a related note, putting uniforms or garments on coat hangers or even on torso forms/mannequins for a long time is -not- a good idea. Most coat hangers are not designed to prevent the weight of the garment from pulling down on the shoulders, around the collar, and eventually causing the shape or drape of the garment from starting to stretch and tug at the weave of the cloth. This also happens on mannequins. The sleeves on garments if not padded, will flatten out and that eventually starts to affect the shape of the cloth and the way it hangs. In the long run, the weight of the garment causes other more or less permanent (or difficult to reverse) effects on the structure of the cloth itself. Items even in display cases should be protective by special glass that eliminates some parts of the light spectrum from getting in. Although that tunic might be a fine piece of "eye candy" in a display case, from time to time, think about giving it a vacation. Rotating items on display at home is also a nice thing from the pyschological standpoint....you won't get tired of seeing the same exact thing 24x7x365.25 time ten or more years? Silk is often used for making flags, medal ribbons, linings of some clothing, and from time to time, other items. The bad news about silk is that silk is an organic material that slowly degrades over time, and there is no way to -permanently- stabilize, let alone reverse, the affects of aging. Silk, is similar to some inorganic materials like plastic that with nothing more than age/time, it will slowly and impercetibly harden, and crack. It is possible to slow down the effects of time by putting items made from silk in controlled environments without oxygen, no sunlight, and cold temperatures which slow down chemical reactions in the silk that cause the aging process. With any storage, it's not a good idea to put something away and then forget about it for a year or more. Items should be examined (a quick look without handling is all that's required) to make sure there are no signs of developing problems, and from time to time, like a human being in a hospital pick it up and examine it so "bed sores" don't develop. The idea is to look for -any- change of condition and if it's a potential problem to nip it in the bud. Cotton gloves are a "must" if you want to be serious about really protecting what you have, especially if the items readily/easily absord body oils, water, dirt from handling, etc, the way that cloth does, and that can cause rust, tarnish, or corrosion on metal items, etc. That's a few points for starters. More to come in bits and pieces.... Les

Glen, Thanks! Anti-semitism certainly existed in Imperial Germany (Germany at that times didn't have a monopoly on it by any means....Russia was arguably even worse). Despite the obvious fact that talented individuals would be affected by their social or other backgrounds, it was sometimes possible for highly talented and gifted individuals who were not part of the cultural mainstream to gain important positions in the Empire. For example, Bleichroeder (an enormously wealthy Jewish banker) helped bankroll Wilhelm (II's) dreams of building Germany's industrial and military might by direct loans to the Imperial government. Without Bleichroeder, Bismarck and later Willy II might have had a far less spectacular period of growth and development in industry, growth of the state railway system, and both army and naval expansion. Despite Willy's sometimes "insensitive" remarks about "Jews" or rather those who practiced Judaism (within Germany), the Kaiser and Bleichroeder maintained both a cordial and business relationship all through the period of Willy's time on the throne. If you want an example of something that raises hackles and is not part of the social norm, is the matter of Phillip v. Eulenberg, a close friend and personal confidant of the Kaiser who was "outed" and exposed in the "infamous" Hardin newspaper scandal and trial. Eulenberg's private life and close friendship with the Kaiser resulted in all of it becoming public, and Eulenberg being forced to resign his commission from the Garde du Korps (and army) and retire to private life. Whatever Loeb was, or wasn't, I suspect he was stereotyped by some on the basis of his social origins. Obviously, if his social connections were "so-so" he got to be a general on the basis of talent, and if he was Jewish, and considering the affect that could have on a career (and not only in Germany) he had to be very good at what he did. His being awarded a PlM is an indication of that. There's an old line about people doing things (in public and private), but not scaring the horses. Loeb may have practised beliefs that were not part of the cultural mainstream, but if he did, like Bleichroeder, Eulenburg, and others who were not part of the mainstream, what he did was probably kept his beliefs and what he did, quiet and private. Out of sight, out of mind perhaps? Reagrdless of whether Loeb practised specific religious beliefs....I don't care. If he came from a Jewish background and managed to rise to field rank against the odds, then the guy had to have talent, and that's what ultimately matters. The comment that when he was appointed to command of the brigade and there wasn't "universal approval" and that he "soon won the respect of his subordinates" says quite a bit ...about him. Les

Rick, Germanic last names can sometimes be deceptive and not truly a refection of someone's "background." I don't know for certain one way or the other what he was. Glenn over on the Axis History forum mentions: January 1989 edition of the Zeitschrift f?r Heereskunde titled General der Kavallerie Robert Loeb - Die Geschichte eines j?dischen Generals. Normally an "e" following an "o" would be umlauted in German, however, the article seems to be using umlauts while spelling L-o-e-b ......"ohne umlaut." Anyone have that issue of Z.f.H. available or could look it up? Les

I found this browsing through another Forum. Loeb commanded the 14th Reserve Division and was awarded the PlM on 17.VI.1918. A recent write up on Loeb mentions he was Jewish. He died in 1925, so what would have happened to him if he was stayed in Germany after Hitler came to power is a moot point. Les

John, I'm normally in favor of leaving things alone and doing as little as possible. If the damage occurred during the owners lifetime and was "owner-inflicted" (for doing a head-first down a long stairway while intoxicated at a public gala...or pushed by his wife during an argument), there might be some historical relevance to keeping the item as is. If you "restore" it and later find out it was a mistake, the integrity of the piece has been altered. If on the otherhand, the damage was done recently, and it's one of those otherwise "invisible" bars, you'll still find people on both side of the spectrum on replacing damaged items with intact ones. By the way, there are jewelers capable of redoing enamel. If the enamel is broken and the rest of the medal intact, whether having the medal restored by a competent enamel worker is an option. Me? I'd be inclined to leave it alone, and hold off on any immediate impulse to fix it. Think before doing anything that can't be undone. Les

Rick, actually what I had in mind here, is to start trying to compile a record of what groups are known to have been split (and by who), and also who has "married" bogus groups. That's two different concepts that can parallel each other here. Splitting groups happens, and I agree with you that catalogues were and are a good thing. They serve as a record or snapshot in time of something that was. They also form a small protection against potential fraud when someone claims to have found the underground vaults of Wilhelm's secret shadow government in it's undisclosed location, or even Al Capone's proverbial vaults. Those snapshots mean anything "new" had better be very well documented. Now....we can resolve who get's the items you and Wildcard covet from the other..... dueling decoder rings, and who can lift the heaviest stack of books to table height without breaking a sweat....? Les

John, If you get frustrated at not being able to re-unite all the items in the group, I know where there's a good home for what you've currently got.... ;-) What I was thinking about with this thread, is what I learned about a paper grouping I bought from someone on ebay, that is a member of another military forum (no names...). I got over 100 plus items, mostly scrapbook type clippings, some photos, a few family land documents, etc, to a WWI Oberst that received the PlM in 1918. HIs last name was/is GrusonI didn't pay all that much for the items, and was looking forward to doing some research on the man. A few weeks after the items arrived, I read on the other forum that someone else who was a member bought three scrapbooks filled with photos, signatures of people that Gruson met after the war at veterans reunions, visitors to his house, and other social situations. I contacted the other person who had the scrapbooks, and both of us learned we bought the items from someone else on the same forum who split the group up and sold off parts to at least two people....possibly more. When I learned what was in the scrapbooks, and considering what I had, figuring out what happened wasn't too hard. Gruson lived near Magdeburg, and after WWII stayed in his home town which was in the Soviet zone of occupation and later the DDR. Gruson died in 1961, and apparently his family must have sold off various items belonging to him after the "wall came down" in the early 1990's. Now I'm wondering what else was there, what happened to the Urkunde for his various awards, his PlM (I have a photo of him wearing it during the "DDR era") and other awards. The collector/dealer that sold the stuff to me wasn't very helpful and informative on saying there was more at one time, etc. In retrospect, if I'd known there was a Pour le Merite recipient's grouping that was broken up, or being broken up, I'd have reconsidered bidding on the items I got. I was an unknowing participant in the breaking up of an important group of documents...and finding out about it after the fact, ticks me off. Try to put the group back together? Who knows what was in there, and offering to buy items that "might" be his, is like offering to buy General Bader's trunks again....because there will be plenty of people saying they have items that Gruson had, or used, and that....means without documentation, it all becomes story time. Les

Paul, Yes, I'd be interested. By the way, speaking of books on a pdf format, I'll be sending you an email about ordering a copy of volume 2. Les

Hmm...the two photos together were larger than the permissable size. Here's the 1940 vintage picture of Horn. Les

1917......and 1940. This guy got his PlM on 23 December 1917, and is a relatively obscure individual: Hans Georg Horn as a reserve officer during the last late great "rematch" of Germany versus the rest of the world. My copy of this photo came from Neil O'Connor had in his files, that he acquired from Horn's widow. The photo has been enlarged and as a consequence some of the details appear blurry. Les