Ed_Haynes

Thanks, Owain. Pardon me for jumping in and reinforcing your point that we need to keep the history straight: -- The Hasmeite Kingdom of the Hijaz And, then, after they get chased away by the al-Saud rise to dominance: -- The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (Transjordan) There's also the short-lived Hashemite Kingdom of Syria but, when the French chase them out (knowing how to deal with "royals"), they shift ("are shifted", what is the right verb form here?) to Iraq along with their hangers-on. The history of this period is one of family, faction, and empty promises.

Oh . . . lovely -- this is one of the nicest things I have seen recently! So, to revise: THE ORDER OF MILITARY VALOR (A21) 1st award - (small star, 3 maker?s marks, no s/n) 2nd award - (Arabic number ?2? at bottom) 3rd award - (Arabic number ?3? at bottom) 4th award - (Arabic number ?4? at bottom) ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (A21.2/A21.3) 1st award Type 1 (large star, МОНДВОР, s/n No) - Low = 188; High = 613 Type 2 (large star, МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР, s/n No) - Low = 318; High = ?? 2nd award - (large star, Mongolian number 2) - Low = ??; High = 69 3rd award - (large star, Mongolian number 3, not seen?) - Low = ??; High = ?? 4th award - (large star, Mongolian number 4, not seen?) - Low = ??; High = ?? ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (A22 varieties) 1st award Type 1.1 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 3 rivets) - Low= 13; High=212 Type 1.2.1 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) - Low = 306; High = 2401 Type 1.2.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN directly below screwpost) - Low = 1007; High = 2581 (these may not be a true variety, just manufacturing randomness?) 2nd award - Low = 53; High = 56 3rd award - Low = ??; High = ?? 4th award - (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom; 4 rivets) - Low = 74; High = 150 ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (Baildaani gav'yaany ulaan tugiin odon) (A23 varieties) 1st award Type 1.1 (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost) - Low = 50; High = 2794 Type 1.2 (as above, but with Cyrillic ?B? mintmark) - Low = 1332; High = 1955 Type 2.1 (Pinback 3 rivets; SN at 12 o'clock) - Low = 3160; High = 4449 Type 2.2 (Pinback 2 rivets; SN at 5 o'clock) - Low = 4584; High = 5392 Type 3.1 (pinback, bronze) - Low = 5512; High = 5607 Type 3.2 (pinback, bronze, unnumbered, escapee?) 2nd award - (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 40 awarded?) - Low = 12; High = 398 3rd award - (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 10-15 awarded?) - Low = 5; High = 200 4th award - (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 4-5 awarded?) - Low = 3; High = 86

Thanks! May we guess there were 1000 of the first type 1.1?

Just an update: Type 1.1 (?Cross? obverse, silver painted) - Low = 10; High = 76 Type 1.2 (?Cross? obverse, silver enameled, green leaves) - Low = 13; High = ?? Type 1.3 (?Cross? obverse, silver enameled) - Low = 249; High = 381 Type 2.1 (red obverse, silver numbered) - Low = 1027; High = 1232 Type 2.2 (red obverse, silver unnumbered, escapee?) Also reminds me I get mine in hand.

Just an update. First class: Type 1.1 (screwback, USSR-made) - Low = 19; High = 9184 Type 1.2 (screwback, Mongolian-made) - Low = 10887; High = 55198 Type 2.1 (pinback, light blue enamel) - Low = 56579; High = 60058 Type 2.2 (pinback, dark blue enamel) - Low = 57225; High = 60054 Second class: Type 1.1 (screwback, USSR-made) - Low = 200; High = 49326 Type 1.2 (screwback, Mongolian-made) - Low = 52404; High = 169768 Type 2.1 (pinback, light blue enamel) - Low = 170577; High = 197624 Type 2.2 (pinback, dark blue enamel) - Low = 179876; High = 211334

After some more discussion here (and in Ulanbaatar), may I offer a revised typology: Type 1 (mirror reverse, thin silver gilt) - Low = 180; High = 5009 Type 2 (flat reverse, silvered bronze) - Low = 16; High = 961 I'd almost be tempted to see the flat-back as earlier? In the absence of number/date matches it is hard to say.

Thenka, "Sparks". That item established a new lower limit for theobserved serial numberv ranbge on the type 1.1: low 9; high 969 To summarise: Type 1.1 (Screwback; flat reverse; 5 rivets) - Low = 9; High = 969 Type 1.2 (Screwback; circular indentation at center on reverse; 2 rivets) - Low = 1038; High = 5873 Type 2.1 (Pinback, 4 rivets, silver) - Low = 6036; High = 8823 Type 2.2 (pinback, bronze) - Low = 7120; High = 9066 Type 2.3 (pinback bronze, not numbered, unawarded escapee?)

And, if we could read it, we might learn something from the legend on the reverse?

Choibalsan and friends, hard at work.

As those more expert than I have said, this is a hard call. Your honesty in unraveling the history of this important group and the sad tale of what the worms have done to this group is worthy of praise. What do you do now? A hard question. My two cents (or less) is: The damage has been done, document it, record it, and do no additional harm. But that is a really, really hard ethical call. I look forward to hearing from others.

Major contributions have been made here toward an expansion of our almost-absent knowledge on one of the more difficult phaleristic areas. Thanks.

Just got an identical document (as part of a larger group of documents). No reason to show it, but it may be useful to record the date of award as 30 December 1954. Maybe we're seeing a narrow window here?

Absolutely! And when I (1) recover fropm mega-jet-lag and (2) some my scribbled notes an answer will be posted. Today. Maybe? Ed

Interesting. Thanks. Just random manufacturers' variants?

On closer and ongoing examination, the fantasy facts presented here are as dangerous as are the prices. The good news is that, so far as I know, there is only one copy of this book in UB (I gave one to Battushig). May we hope it remains thus.

He was, after all, an ARAB and not a Turk and there was pretty systematic discrimination against them. This is one reason a fair number switched sides (also to get out of POW camp).

From Owain (and WHAT A PHOTO!):

In the old days, though, a few did receive awards (especially Qing Chinese awards), especially as they shaded over from "clergy" to "nobility"; see http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5489...3850&st=129 and the following post. This is perhaps another part of the reason they were viewed so negatively by the revolutionaries?

A very modern young monk in today's Ulanbaatar, iPhone and all.

What became of them. (From the "Museum of Political Oppression" in Ulanbaatar.)

Another.

Arguably outside our scope, Buddhism monks in Mongolia -- owning most of the flocks and most of the herders -- represented one of the classes most displaced (and, by the 1930s, displaced with bullets) by the revolution. Today, they are making a comeback (much as the church is on the rise in Russia). A couple of faces from that past.

Thanks! I had been staring at it so long that my eyes were starting to swim. Therefore, I missed the obvious! OКTЯБPБ (though the final letter is bashed a bit)

OK, it gets even more confusing. A very modern-feeling, lightweight, unnumbered item. The center and suspension are not blue but rather a blue-green color (much more "green" than "blue" though it may nopt scan that way).

I NIB 09 -- Unknown Mongolian-Soviet Friendship Badge Have no idea what the letters on the surrounding stars represent or even where the 'break' the word/abbreviation.