Ed_Haynes

J 41 -- Outstanding Hunter of the MPR Hunters' Association

J 28 -- Second Agriculture Conference, 1959

J 25 -- The Union of the Agricultural Cooperatives of the MPR

J 16 -- The Outstanding Worker of the Agriculture and Food Industry

J 15 -- The Champion of High Harvest

Thanks, Rick, I knew I had seen that style somewhere and couldn't place it. I suspect that any "Vietnamese" ribbon style is actually an exported colonial "French" style.

This whole transaction just smells worse and worse.

Not sure we know enough about Guy's image to say much of anything. That we have an image of a rosetted ribbon and an envelope from an unknown source doesn't give us much of a "data point". Admittedly, we need to know much more about Iranian awards than we do at present, but the chances of archival access are so close to zero as to not matter. But I think this unofficial Frenchy thing is what we are seeing anyway.

UN is right, without that silly rosette thingy; Iran is wrong unless this is a 1900-1939 grand cross . . . . Silly French pseudo-award is right. Whoopie?

Thank you, Mr. FireMedals!

OK, believe what you wish . . .

And the colors on his link are TOTALLY different from the ones I posted. And the ribbon has no similarity to any Iranian ribbon I have ever seen. What makes us think it is trying to ape an Iranian ribbon (that never existed in Iran)?

But it isn't even remotely similar to the Persian ribbon!

But what in the world would lead one to put those little French rosette-wing-thingies on a UN ribbon for Mozambique?

No, not that. See http://www.medals.lava.pl/ir/ir1.htm and http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Persia/Orders/crown.htm Looks to me like a UN medal for UNIMOZ and ONUMOZ that someone has "dressed up" -- see http://www.medals.org.uk/united-nations/un...-nations005.htm

Welcome! While sales is not our focus, it is possible. There is a "for sale" forum.

An as yet badly broken group, recently reunited through DNW at considerable price: 24075 Sepou Babu Singh, VrC, MM, 1st Battalion, Sikh Regiment Borm 8 April 1921, v. Natt, Sangrur Dist., Punjab Father Sh Mangal Singh Enrolled 8 April 1942 Religion Sikh M.M.: 24075. SEPOY. BABU SINGH SIKH R. London Gazette 1 November 1945. The orginal recommendation for an immediate MM award states: "At Abya on the night of 3-4 July 1945, Sepoy Babu Singh was a member of an isolated Platoon in Satthwagyon village, which was heavily attacked throughout the night by approximately 150 enemy. All communications with the Battalion had failed and the position of the Platoon was desperate, as by 0600 hours in the morning only ten rounds of ammunition per man remained. "Sepoy Babu Singh volunteered to take a message to the Battalion some three miles away. To do this, with an interpreter, he divested himself of his clothes and donned a loin cloth. Then, completely submerged, the two men crawled down a nullah out of the position, and through the encircling enemy. They mingled with the local inhabitants who were being cleared by the Japanese, and openly walked past, and within two feet of two Japanese sentries. Once clear of the village, the two men ran for three miles over flooded paddy fields, bearing a written message, to the Battalion position. Thereafter, they led a relieving company back to a position where they could attack the Japanese from a flank, and so relieve the hard-pressed platoon. The gallantry and devotion to duty of these two men was instrumental in saving the Platoon, as owing to the confused situation it was not realised that the Platoon was heavily engaged." Vr.C.: 24075 SEP. BABU SINGH, 1 BN., SIKH R.-7 NOV 1947 Even the new (3rd) edition of Gandhi's book does not include a recommendation for his Vir Chakra. Need to get it! Unfortunately, the MM was accompanied (though, blissfully, not mounted with) fraudulent ("restored") WWII campaign medals. These have gone to the "junk box", but his MM is now happily back together with his VrC. Now, where are the others . . . ???

It is sad how quickly such discussions can turn so nasty, even among an international community of gentlemen. When we get into a situation of dueling patriotisms and scarcely disguised racism there is much danger. We have strayed far into that minefield, I fear. Christian has presented an interesting piece of tangible military history and a version of the history behind it. Like it or not, that is a historical understanding we need to know. And if it is a version of the history that we have been taught not to know, maybe it is all the more important. Can we please try to set our passports and their peculiar printing aside and see what has been presented here as just what it is, without becoming all jingoistically patriotically defensive. OK, maybe we can't. Thinking at a level of universal humanity may be impossible, especially for those suckled on military service. This is why I don't talk about a lot of contemporary phaleristic issues I'd like to talk about. Depending on sensitivities, you can get yourself punished or spanked or even banished from a forum (this has happened to me twice, a result of talking the unacceptably radical position that there is no rate of exchance on human life, based on nationalality or race).

Nope. no problems. Emotions are always involved with issues like this, especially where a body of evidence has to be assembled since money is involved. All of us also need to bear in mind that we are an international forum and, for that reason, language issues can sometimes cloud communications. I do feel that soemtimes we get a bit like our distant cousins who collect that Nazi stuff: presenting two uncaptioned pictures and an aggressively worded conclusion does not always constitute rationally argued evidence. While we have a long way to go before we start spilling blood (and reputation) over the obscurities of beading of the rims of Iron Crosses (based on images that look identical to novices like me), their behavior should serve as a cautionary example for us! And until we have published sources in English that are better, most of us will be stuck with The Red Bible. Excellent even revolutionary for its time, but with flaws that become more obvious as each year passes and their work ages ungracefully. The fact that there are good, focused, expensive books out there in Russian and of course a marvelous website in Russian may be interesting in the abstract, but it doesn't help most of us very much. Online translations may or may not be much help. This is unfortunate, because it not only puts some excellent (and beautiful) work off limits to many of us but adds to the growing gulf between collectors in Russia and those in the rest of the world. And "learn Russian" sounds easier than it is, especially beyond a certain age.

No, I am happy with the evidence as it has been presented. At first, the evidence wasn't presented but the facts are now on the table on both "groups". I appreciate all your help. The seller (a forum friend) has been contacted.

Thanks! When evidence is presented calmly, rationally, and as evidence and not as assertion, we can of course use our "power of brains". When we are simply told "fake" with no rational evidence presented, we sometimes react poorly. Maybe we shouldn't. Yet, sometimes, having expert certification is still useful and valuable. I think you can understand that.

Those awarded the "2", "3", or "4" numbered badges. Or, more accurately, and turning that around, the numbers of "2", "3", and "4" badges awarded. The first number is probably unknowable, for photographs (and I refer here of photos of Mongolians, not foreigners) make it clear that numbered subsequent awards weren't consistent. Even Choibalsan's five (5!) RCBs seem to have been unnumbered. Yet Lkhagvasuren's are properly numbered 2-3-4. Dr. Battushig. We shall, of course, know more when the registers of awards become available. Unfortuntely, this will also constitute a division in our collections between awarded pieces with history and the unawarded (but still numismtically nice) bank escapees.

As with most countries, I think they devoted less attention to odd and exotic foreigners than to their own citizens. And it may have been a function of what the embassy in Moscow held in the valuts. Yet as only some 40 of the "2" were ever awarded, . . . 10-15 of the "3" and 4-5 of the "4" . . . ???

Thanks, Bob. That exceeds, by a thousand, the previously recorded high. I did get the sense, when I was in UB, from what I saw but could not understand on TV, that the mommy order was still being awarded, as new recipients were being interviewed on the TV news. Make the range for the Second Class Order of Mother Heroine an observed low of 179876 and a high of 211334. There is some overlap with Type 2.1, with a range of 170577/197624 (suggesting the enamel color means nothing with the pinback 2nd class).

WWII MMs almost always have a recommendation in WO 373. Many are very nice. See, for example, Rifleman Asarsing Limbu's MM group: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2331&st=21.