Tim Tezer

Absolutely. The consensus is that Wagner was the primary maker - although there are undoubtedly huge numbers of fakes out there that SAY Wagner on the back, even if they were not made by Wagner. Godet probably made some as well, and who knows how many other makers. The problem is that they are so small that it is impossible to put together a typology using period photos from catalogs or anything like that. The desire among collectors is to pin down the one absolutely "correct" original type and rule all others as merely questionable copies or outright fakes. With these, that's not possible. There is no black and white - only gray. Personally I tend to look at pieces that are mounted on medal bars, then judge the medal bar as a whole to decide whether I believe it or not. From that, you can narrow it down to a small number of "original" types. You have to recognize that there may be other period types that don't happen to show up on any medal bars, or you might just make an error in judgment about the originality of the bars, so it's not a foolproof approach. I don't have one in my collection, so any conclusions I have come to so far have cost me nothing. Tim

I'm kind of surprised nobody has responded to this. The answer to your questions are: 1) No. 2) Not applicable, as they were not awarded. 3) Yes. 4) I don't recall seeing one, but I'm not much of a document guy. Hope that helps.

Too bad it's not that simple. The first example shown is what I would call a textbook original, produced by the "Darphane Amire" or National Mint. The second example, however, is by an unknown maker, possibly European. Unfortunately, determining who made it and when is rather difficult. Even if you find one like it in case by Godet or Lemaitre (just for example), that wouldn't necessarily prove anything, because cases are often matched up with badges after the fact. Tim

Very interesting. I learned something, too! Tim

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as 1000 silver content. Pure silver is considered to be 999 fine, and the only thing I have ever heard of being made in pure silver was silver bullion. For any practical use, nobody would use 999 silver, so I suspect that this marking must mean something other than the silver content. Tim

Avsar, I see your point. It is always hard to tell with just photographs, but there is no doubt that the center medallion is completely wrong. I hadn't really noticed it before. I would have to agree that this piece is completely fake. Tim

This sold for a lot of money, considering what it is. I think maybe it is not a fake, but just heavily repaired. The reverse medallion has a lot of "junk" on it that makes me think it was re-soldered. Also, the enamel does not look right, but it is uneven and the colors are not consistent, so I think it is just a repair job. Tim

Hmmm.... maybe more like 1930-1940.

They are the same maker: Jean Godet & Sohne (...und Sohne). Pieces have also been seen marked "J.G.S." and simply "GODET." Tim

Well I was sort of joking when I said he was honest. ;)

...an excellent point. Perhaps he is honest, in his own way, after all.

In actual fact, it is not possible to identify it as a counterfeit from the photos provided by the seller. Neither is it possible to identify it as an original. Given the rarity of the piece, one would have to either have it hand to examine it very closely in order to make that determination, or purchase it from a highly trustworthy and reliable seller. Therein lies the problem: who is this person? His user name is "raritaetensammlerclub," so one would presume that he is aware of the value of the items he is selling, but he lists it at a starting price of 1 euro? Why would anyone do that? Why would anyone selling what he describes as "rarities" not provide better photos? He says that Ebay doesn't allow larger photos? I have sold many items on Ebay and have never had that problem. His behavior isn't just suspicious, it's practically a declaration of guilt.

I printed the photo on my dot-matrix printer and then drove by it in my car at 50 feet away, and from that angle I can swear to you that the KO4 with swords looks absolutely original! If only I had a wad of cash to throw out the window, it might have been mine. Tim

As I pointed out on another forum, the one with the red background was lifted from a Butterfields auction back in 2002, and unfortunately that one was also a fake (a humiliation that I'm still trying to live down, because I thought it was authentic at the time). I reported this listing to Ebay, but as expected they have done nothing, and do not seem to have an issue with the lead photo not being the same item as depicted in the other photos. Tim

That was my "Plan B" if the swords clasps are both silver. He seems to have abandoned any attempt to mount them in a logical order of precedence. What the heck, it was his ribbon bar - he could mount it any way he wanted, right? Tim

Of the two "1333" date clasps on the Turkish ribbons, is the one on the left silver or gold/gilt? If it's gold, then the medals would appear to be (left to right): Liyakat Medal in gold, Imtiyaz Medal in silver, Turkish War Medal, Lifesaving Medal (solid green ribbon), and then another Liyakat ribbon which would probably be the silver medal. Tim

It looks good to me, although these are very hard to say because they were all essentially "private purchase." Holders of the Iron Cross were authorized to wear them, and they simply went and bought them, so there are many many variants. Non-magnetic is generally not relevant in this case, as most were made of silver or silvered brass. But, at the risk of changing the subject, I wouldn't say it's impossible. I have seen an entire 1870 Iron Cross 2nd class that was magnetic - even the frame! Tim

Similar if you mean that they had a crescent in the center. But the badge that started this discussion was suspended by a ribbon (which Nelson's awards are evidently not), from an enameled gold suspension device in the form of a turban. This turban suspension was completely made up by whoever made these badges, and was never a part of any Turkish made order. I suppose the important question is this: were these privately purchased badges made in France in the early 19th century and illustrated by Perrot, or were they made later using a fanciful illustration in his book as a model? Tim

This is a very interesting little group. Apparently, the Steuben Society of America is still with us. The first paragraph of their "History" page on their web site reads: "The Steuben Society of America, founded in 1919, is an educational, fraternal, and patriotic organization of American citizens of German background. " That means that the recipient of this Iron Cross was either an American of German descent, or a German who moved to America and became a citizen. Given the anti-German fervor whipped up during WW1, and the rise of the Nazis not long after that, this guy must have gone through some uncomfortable times! Tim

Well.... I wouldn't go that far. I saw this group and Don's thread on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum and I felt sorry for the guy, so I'll leave it at that.

I think there is one of this type pictured in "Iron Time" but I don't have the book on hand. It is a known type that has been regarded as "period," and sold as such by Detlev Niemann and others. Depends on what you consider a "period" example. That could be 1880, 1890, 1900, or....? My guess is they are 19th century, as the pin assemblies by 1914 had become more sophisticated than this. Tim

Sorry for chiming in so late. I have seen four or five examples of this order, whatever it is, and on more than one occasion it has been incorrectly identified as an Order of the Crescent. It is NOT an Order of the Crescent or any other officially manufactured or awarded Ottoman decoration. Nor is it, to my knowledge, a modern Turkish award, especially as the use of a turban as a symbol would be quite out of touch with a modern, constitutionally secular state. I wish I could give you more information than that, but all I can say is what can be surmised from looking at them. I agree that they appear to be European made, but might have been made for another Middle-Eastern government (the crescent and star symbols are not exclusively Turkish), or for that matter might have been made for a fraternal organization that was trying to tap into the imagery of "the mysterious Orient," as the Shriners do here in the U.S. by wearing a fez as their official headgear, usually with a large crescent embroidered on it. Tim

Rick, No hurry. These medals have been around almost 100 years, and I'm going to be around for a few years myself (Inshallah) The marks are very interesting, but I'm not sure that the second mark is Arabic - not sure what it is, really. I'll have to stare at it for a while and see if it starts to do anything. Tim

Rick, Is that a raised inscription in the banner on the reverse of your Imtiyaz medal? And is the reverse of the suspension marked "800"? Tim

I just read this thread on the Imperial German forum, and thought it should be cross-referenced into the Turkish forum: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=26693 I have not looked at the Ebay listing yet, so I am not sure when this sale ends. Tim