GdC26
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Dear RedNoseScout, As I noted in the threat on the - let's call it the - Popov badge you posted, reading is an art. However personal you may want to take it, "Another sales pitch. I'm going to bed .... ? .... feel free to wake me up when something exiting happens ......" is a comment about your posts, which are filled with hyperbole like "I know of only four case engraved pilot badges of the central powers .... Two are pictured bellow." but tend to be thin on facts. You want to assess my knowledge, feel free to check out my posts and reputation on GMiC. By the way, in case you didn't notice - you may want to use some of the royalties from your upcoming books on a new keyboard, because your current one seems to be malfunctioning (try as you might, you can't type my name right and your message seems ..... garbled)? Kind regards (we're after all all gentlemen here, even if not all of us seem to be aware of it), Sandro
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Another sales pitch. I'm going to bed .... ? .... feel free to wake me up when something exiting happens ......
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As said, reading is an art. Tomas just confirmed that he mistyped, and that it is in fact December 1909, as the Wikipedia link he added confirms. In a free Google translation of: "В 1909 году он уехал во Францию, где стал работать механиком в авиашколе, созданной братьями Райт под Парижем, что позволяло ему проводить целые дни на аэродромеЖювизи под Парижем. Получив первые уроки лётного мастерства у шеф-пилота и первого ученика школы Райтов графа Шарля де Ламбера, француза, сына русского подданного, он 13 декабря 1909 года совершил свой первый самостоятельный вылет на аэроплане «Райт». Первый полёт длился недолго: из за неправильного движения рулями Попов опустился слишком резко и довольно сильно расшибся. Пострадал и аэроплан. Это, однако, не обескуражило Николая Евграфовича. Через месяц, оправившись от ран и ушибов, он вновь устремился в небо. " "In 1909, he left for France, where he began working as a mechanic in an aviation school set up by the Wright brothers near Paris, which allowed him to spend whole days at the Juvisy airfield near Paris. Having received his first flying lessons from the chief pilot and the first student of the Wright school, Count Charles de Lambert, a Frenchman, the son of a Russian citizen, on December 13, 1909, he made his first solo flight on a Wright airplane. The first flight did not last long: due to incorrect movement of the rudders, Popov sank too sharply and hurt himself quite badly. The aircraft was also damaged. This, however, did not discourage Nikolai Evgrafovich. A month later, having recovered from wounds and bruises, he again rushed into the sky." But hey, what are facts for if not to bend them to fit the story ....? And why actually read what those heretics say anyway ...? Kind regards, Sandro
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Thanks Tomas. I was referring to the sentence "He flew solo for the first time in December 1908" in one of your earlier posts, but gather you mistyped. Which makes the "1908" reference on the badge something of a riddle again. and the badge itself an article of faith .... Kind regards, Sandro
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"Maybe" .....? And "we may never be able to .... tie all data points" ? Thanks for proving my point about the speculative nature of your assertions on this particular badge better than I ever could, dear Luftmensch. The known facts, however, are as stated earlier: "1) the Luftfaherabzeichen is original; 2) The engraving is done by hand." The rest, as we all seem to acknowledge, is speculation and belief, at least on the info before us. I drew the same conclusion several posts ago, so there we are: full circle .... Kind regards, Sandro Ps- had you actually read any of Tomas' posts, you might have noted that December 1908 was the date of Popov's first flight. For you, that is probably further proof of your beliefs, for me, it hardly is.
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I know, reading and logical reasoning are arts not mastered by all. Still, that is what this forum is all about - drawing conclusions on the basis of confirmed facts and logic, whilst keeping an open mind. It's a juggle, but you perhaps you can try it some time. It seems this threat has run its course (RedNoseScout and you have not contributed a single relevant fact for a while now), but it will be my pleasure to engage again when you have anything to contribute beyond "they don't engarave like they used to". Oh, on logical though, regarding your last point in response to Tomas' observations - I'm confused, so your contention is that airship steersmen in French service in WWI were given the Austrian Luftfahrerabzeichen? And all of that relates to 1908 how? The mind boggles .... Kind regards as always, Sandro
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Here’s a shocker: I may not be able to show you a second example of the Shroud of Turin, yet many scientists believe, on the evidence available, that the one example that is known is a medieval forgery. Only the faithful think differently. Hyperbole aside, your approach to scientific debate is fundamentally flawed. There are many pieces on the market that have been spiced up through engravings and by other means. That goes for Austrian decorations as well (just have a look at the many dedicated Austrian, English, Italian etc. medals on the market, for example, some legit, some doubtful, many hand engraved). You don’t recognize that practice, I fear for your collection. Anyway, it is clear you’re not a man of your word - I did what you asked (acknowledge that I don’t know) and you’re not impressed …. ? As said, time to move on. If you’re the current or past owner of this badge (which given your attitude, strikes me as distinctly possible): I hope you enjoy it, and can forgive those of lesser faith. Kind regards, Sandro
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Ok, so this is now a glorified book-ad. Indeed, time to move on as Tomas said. Personally, as a skeptic, I though Tomas “first flight in December 1908” point might capture the attention of tho faithful, and give them something to examine further, but I see I’m wrong on that, and we’re now in “buy my book and all will be revealed” land. ? Given the quality of input provided so far, and it’s speculative nature, I’ll probably pass on that (my loss, I know). However, do feel free to wake me up if there is more info on the provenance or history of the badge. Kind regards, Sandro
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Indeed I don’t, and neither do you, Luftmensch. All you have is faith, faith I am indeed lacking. Kind regards, Sandro ps 1 - it’s “Occam’s raZor”. I wasn’t going to raise that, but now that you insist on repeating the error in a reference that somehow seems to upset you, let’s at least ensure proper spelling going forward. ps 2 - now that I have impressed “the heck out of” you, take deep breath and see this discussion for what it is: just a clash of ideas and perspectives (even if some are indeed better founded than others). ps 3 - research into the Austro-Hungarian/Russian connection might start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_pioneers Rather than basking in faith, I spent some time going to the list and found no obvious connections, but with time and patience, who knows. As said repeatedly, I’m keeping an open mind (another way of saying “I don’t know”?), even if I’m skeptical.
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It strikes me that hese are the issues to be resolved. Latching on to the 1908 date doesn't resolve them (in fact, according to Tomas, Popov in 1908 was just an engineer, and started to fly only in 1908), nor does emphasizing that the skill of hand engraving is dying out, or that in 40 years of collecting (most of us, including myself, meet that threshold, not that it means much) you have never seen a similarly forged badge. Identification of an Austrian aviator who attended the Wright brother's Paris' flight school and who served in the war as an aviator and survived it might, as might establishing when this badge first hit the market (if that was ten years ago when the Russian collection market was extremely hot, that could certainly be a red flag - Popov may not be well known in the West, but that may be different in Russia). Any evidence on those issues could perhaps help to progress this discussion on the facts, rather than on conviction and belief. Kind regards, Sandro
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Ps - oddly, Occams razor does not involve extra points for emphasis ... ?
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I agree with that, - the question is post which war, and how long post that war ..... As already explained, that is not how this works - there is no presumption of originality, originality has to be proven. Unless new evidence is adduced, I think we've gone full circle and will now restart the loop .... Kind regards, Sandro
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I think Enzo, Tomas and I are talking facts, not engaging on speculation about what might have been. The facts are as Enzo, Tomas and I have stated, and they don’t confirm the authenticity of the dedication (which in itself has two issues requiring explanation: the reference to a famous Russian early aviation pioneer and the reference to the year 1908, a time when (international) aviation was still in its infancy, and international meets had not started yet. A further issue, of course, is why that engraving would appear on an Austrian aviation badge issued some 8-10 years later). The rest, frankly, are matters of speculation, preference and belief. As said, a lot of things are possible, but absent further proof, concluding that the engraving is original seems a stretch. And this wouldn’t be the first original item that has been embellished to enhance its market value. I’m keeping an open mind, but on the evidence presented Occam’s razor leads me to believe for now that the latter is the more plausible thesis. Let’s see what further factual and verifiable evidence the owner or others adduce in support of the alternative view. Kind regards, Sandro
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Many things are possible, of course, but I not sure that that is how this works - assume it is good until proven otherwise. Normally, it is the other way around ..... "buy the item, not the story"? Unless there is some sound evidence on the history and provenance of this piece, for reasons stated by Tomas and Enzo, it should be approached with a healthy dosis of skepticism in my view. Especially since Mr. Popov was not exactly a nobody in Russian aviation history, from the looks of it, and so I gather, did not fly in the Russian air service during WWI, and no other connection with Austria has so far been established. Enzo's summary of the evidence before us strikes me as accurate: we have a 1917 original military aircrew badge with a hand-engraved deduction, made out to a famous Russian civilian flight engineer/pioneer to commemorate something that purportedly happened in 1908 (and thus has nothing to do with the badge). Without further information/proof (on the giver, on the event, on Popov 1908's connection with Austria, etc.). What doesn't help is that the first international aeronautical week took place in 1909, the second in 1911 - so that avenue does not seem to be open, either: https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/1909-first-major-international-flying-meet https://feefhs.org/index.php/resource/russia-blitz-first-aviators I'll keep an open mind, of course, but for the reasons set out above, originality will have to be proven in my view, and cannot be assumed. Kind regards, Sandro
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Or it might be a well engraved fantasy to boost value, I guess ……? Great research, thanks Tomas. Kind regards, Sandro
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Not hard to do, and a courtesy to GJW: we are, after all, all gentlemen here? Kind regards, Sandro Can I suggest we stop highjacking GJW's thread, and that you open your own thread on your book project? Not hard to do, and a courtesy to GJW: we are, after all, all gentlemen here? Kind regards, Sandro Ok, somehow my post got messed up. What I meant to write was: Hello RedNoseScout, Well done on promoting your book project, which if real and thorough, sounds like it might be a good addition to the literature on the topic. Can I suggest we stop highjacking GJW's thread, and that you open your own thread on your book project? Not hard to do, and a courtesy to GJW: we are, after all, all gentlemen here? Kind regards, Sandro
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I think some caution is in order: see RedNoseScout’s contribution to the thread below. @RedNoseScout: what happened to the German WWI aviation book you said you were working on in the thread below: “I am putting together a book on my collection. It is strictly WW1 German Aviation”? And why highjack someone else’s thread to present your items? BTW, do you mean Karl Urban: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Urban_(aviator) who, as it happened, had an Otto Jaeger as observer?
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Christian is correct. Kind regards, Sandro
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Help with Prince August Leopold Medal
GdC26 replied to Flávio P.Z.Peixoto's topic in Austro-Hungarian Empire
Kleine Dekoration zum Großkreuz des SEHO"s, perhaps? King Ferdinand of Bulgaria had one - with swords, of course (pic and description ex Zeige). The new shot posted above shows what could be lions, and the ribbon w in both pics could be a match (unlike the ribbon for the Greek order of the Redemeer, which is blue and white). Kind regards, Sandro Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden, Kleindekoration zum Großkreuz mit Schwertern "E" Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha aus dem Besitz des Zaren Ferdinand I. von Bulgarien. Kreuz Gold emailliert, Kreuzarme mit kleinen Chips, durchbrochene Krone, am Dreiecksband, im Verleihungsetui mit goldgeprägter Krone. Bekanntlich war die Firma Rothe in Wien der Hoflieferant des Zaren und so wurde auch diese Dekoration in Wien angefertigt. Provenienz: "Collection of King Ferdinand I. of Bulgaria", Sothebys London 1998 Los 231.
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Dear all, I'm composing a list of the awards of Pier Ruggero Piccio, Italy's third air ace of WWI. What I have so far is: 1911/1912: Commemorative Medal of the Italo-Turkish war 1911/1912: Bronze Medaglia al Valore Militare (Medal for Military Valor) May to August 1915: Bronze Medaglia al Valore Militare 18 October 1916: Silver Medaglia al Valore Militare: First award 5 May 1918: Gold Medaglia al Valore Militare June 1918: Silver Medaglia al Valore Militare: Second award 17 May 1919: Officer of the Military Order of Savoy (A.D. - Aeronautical; Knight: 28 February 1918) 20 November 1924: Commander of the Order of the S.S. Maurice and Lazarus (Knight: 11 June 1922) 29 September 1935: Grand Cross of the Order of the Crown of Italy (Grand Officer: 28 January 1926; Commander: 5 September 1923; Officer: 17 May 1919; Knight: 31 December 1914) Commander of the French Legion d'Honneur (March) 1923: Polish order Virtuti Militari 4th class Silver military long-distance air navigation award, second degree Please, can you help me complete the list? And does anyone have the number for the Virtuti Militari 4th class awarded to Pier Ruggiero Piccio, please? Many thanks for your help as always. Kind regards, Sandro
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Italy, Order of the Crown, knight, from the looks of it? Kind regards, Sandro
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The clasp could be Spanish. Kind regards, Sandro
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+1
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Glenn, That is most generous. I’ll send you my e-mail later tonight. That said, my offer stands should you change your mind and decide to relaunch the site. Kind regards, Sandro
