GdC26

I'm looking to complete the CV of Char. Oberst Georg Dobel. The data I have compiled from open sources is set out below. Any corrections and/or further data are much appreciated. Many thanks in advance, kind regards, Sandro Georg Dobel 1778 Geboren Eintritt in die bayerische Armee Patent als Sousleutnant 13/4/1807 Auszeichnung als (Unter)Leutnant bei der Verteidigung der Brückenschanze bei Serock, Polen 6. Leichtes Infanterie-Batallion (Bayerisches Thatenbuch, S. 48; Armee-Befehl vom 31 Mai 1807) 12/5/1809 Beförderung zum Oberleutnant 3. Infanterie Regiment (Kgl. Bay. Regierungsblatt 1809, S. 802) 23/2/1812 Beförderung zum Kapitän 2. Klasse 3. Linien Infanterie Regiment Prinz Karl (Kgl. Bay. Regierungsblatt 1812, S. 414) 30 & 31/10/1813 Auszeichnung als Hauptmann bei der Schlacht um Hanau 6. Leichtes Infanterie-Batallion (Bayerisches Thatenbuch S. 278) 30/4/1814 Beförderung zum Kapitän 1. Klasse (Kgl. Bay. Regierungsblatt 1814, Ss. 1163/64) 1/12/1830 Beförderung zum Major Zugleich: Versetzung zum 14. Linien IR (Armee-Befehl vom 1. Dezember 1830, Armee-Befehl 1822/55) 30/4/1835 Verleihung des Ehrenkreuzes des königlich bayerischen Ludwigordens (als Major im 14. Linien Infanterie Regiment) (Armee-Befehl vom 28. Oktober 1835, § 2) 10/9/1840 Beförderung zum Oberstleutnant Zugleich: Ernennung als Platz Stabsoffizier Stadt u. Festungskommandantur Gemersheim (Armee-Befehl vom 10. September 1840, § 17) 31/3/1848 Pensionierung als Charakterisierter Oberst (Regierungsblatt für des Königreich Bayern 1848, S. 256) 4/10/1850 In München gestorben im Alter von 72 Jahren (Regierungsblatt für des Königreich Bayern 1851, S. 863; Der Bayerische Landbote 1850, S. 1548) Verzeichnete Orden & Ehrenzeichen - Ehrenkreuz des königlich bayerischen Ludwigordens - Militärdenkzeichen für 1813, 1814, 1815 (Militär-Handbuch des Königreiches Bayern 1849, S. 218) Quellen: https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10373593?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10377526?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10710144?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10710138?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10345334?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10347306?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10334272?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10710162?p=58&cq=von&lang=de https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10710177?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10710180?p=1&cq= https://www.bavarikon.de/object/bav:BSB-MDZ-00000BSB10502788?p=1&cq= https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/view/bsb10376605?page=52,53

Not to burst your bubble, but Salomon notes in one of his posts that Kellner II retired on 23rd December 1867, and most of these items date from after that time. The pics posted aren't the greatest, but there also seems to be very little tying this group (if it is a group, it seems pretty disparate to me) to Lippe-Detmold, which based on Solomon's descriptions, is what lends Kellner II historical relevance. Am I missing something (apart from magic numbers)?

Which confirms that, as Enzo notes, Franz Joseph was not Franz Ferdinand's brother but his uncle (a well known fact). The Wiki page on Franz Ferdinand which you cited above in fact contains the same info, with a bit more detail on why FF became FJ's heir to the throne: "Franz Ferdinand was the eldest son of Archduke Karl Ludwig of Austria, the younger brother of Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria. Following the death of Crown Prince Rudolf in 1889 and the death of Karl Ludwig in 1896, Franz Ferdinand became the heir presumptive to the Austro-Hungarian throne."

Hmmm, before this takes on a life of its own - no, nothing special, this is what they look like: https://www.faleros.cz/en/medals-of-military-manoeuvres/k-upomince-na-velke-cisarske-manevry-u-stekny-v-cechach-1905-2/ https://rauch-auctions.bidinside.com/es/lot/9380/-sterreich-monarchie-manvermedaillen-/ Sorry if this bursts anyone's bubble, but there is too much conjecture in this hobby these days, which is strange, because research has never been easier.

Well done, congrats!

If you hacve (access to) that Rangliste you'll find a legenda at the outset that will allow you to ID these orders yourself. And this could help to get you started: Once you've narrowed it down to a few you are unable to ID I'm sure I or others will chime in - but that is a long list, and "help to identify" implies you make the effort first.

Swords were reserved for A-H subjects, and denoted award in the face of the enemy, and Austrian WWI era ribbon bars do sport swords if the ÖOEK3 had been awarded for service in hte face of the enemy. But the bar at hand is that of a German (probably: Prussian) officer, as evidenced in particular by the long service ribbon. Whilst a WWI era bestowal of the OEK3 to a foreigner would sport the war decoration, it would not have been awarded without swords. So the absence of swords and the presence of a KD device do make sense. Again, I'm not saying the bar itself is original, just that the presence of a ÖOEK3KD without swords on the bar does not disqualify it. Kind regards, Sandro

Not sure why that would be puzzling. Precedents exist (see below) and even if Herr Oberst(leutnant) or Herr Major did receive other Austrian-Hungarian Awards (which may not necessarily be the case) he might have chosen not to wear them on his ribbon bar. https://www.kuenker.de/en/archiv/stueck/57413 Große sächsische Feldschnalle des Oberstleutnants Ludwig Freiherrn von Müller, Kommandeur des sächsischen 1. Königs Husaren-Regiments Nr. 18, mit Bändern für 9 Auszeichnungen. 1) Sachsen: Verdienstorden; 2) Sachsen: Albrechtsorden; 3) Sachsen: Dienstauszeichnung; 4) Preußen: Roter Adler-Orden; 5) Preußen: Kronen-Orden; 6) Sachsen-Weimar: Hausorden vom Weißen Falken; 7) Sachsen-Weimar: Erinnerungsmedaille an die Goldene Hochzeit 1892; 😎 Österreich: Orden der Eisernen Krone; 9) Toskana: Militär-Verdienstorden. Auf der Rückseite Abdecktuch, an Nadel. I have no views on the originality of the bar shown by you, Stogie, but the the fact that it displays the OEK3 as the only Austrian Hungarian award doesn't bother me. Kind regards, Sandro

Hi Glenn, You are of course correct, what I had in mind (and in fact scanned for David) is Paul Pietsch’ Formationsgeschichte. That reminds me that I should check before I type, even if it was early ….. Kind regards, Sandro

Knötel/Pietsch/Collas describes the evolution of the Prussian general’s uniform from (from memory) the mid 1800’s to around 1914 on the basis of the pertinent AKO’s, so that could be useful. Kind regards, Sandro

Not imperial. Probably repro, perhaps East German (although I couldn't find this branch color on a quick search). Broadly speaking, imperial general officer's tabs varied by state (Bavaria, Prussia, Saxony etc.) and by the charge (general, Generaladjutant etc.) held by the general officer concerned, not by branch. Regards, Sandro

This seems to be true for 1914 crosses https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/militar-verdienstkreuz-2-klasse-1914.html but may not not necessarily be true for earlier versions like the one shown by Don (cross without date for the 1905/06 African campaigns). Kind regards, Sandro

I think you're probably correct. Given its condition, this could well be a "keep at home" tunic. Looks like it doesn't sport loops for n EK I and it certainly does not have button hole ribbon for the EKII or BMVK4 - is that consistent with the young Grafs listings in the Militär Handbuch and/or the pics you have seen? And is the size of the tunic roughly consistent with that of the Graf in these pics? Kind regards, Sandro

My great pleasure. the book(let) is well worth having. Kind regards, Sandro

For those interested in Forman's Wilhelm II decorations, this may be of interest: https://www.adrianforman.com/shop.php?id=115 Kind regards, Sandro

Excellent news indeed! Kind regards, Sandro

No, it's Bavarian allright, but the St. Hubertus Kleinood is the one shown two posts up (in the version with Brillianten, and correctly ID-ed by member 91-old-inf-reg. ). This is a Verdienstorden der bayerische Krone. Fantastic pieces, many thanks for sharing. Kind regards, Sandro

Best I know, in private collections. The book describes their journey in private hands up to the 1970’/‘80’s and Thies auctioned the medal bar several years ago. Kind regards, Sandro

T'is indeed .... Kind regards, Sandro

Hi Andreas, Here are the entries from the 1916 Rangliste (as you can see from the front page, actually the 1914 Rangliste with updates to 1916) you requested, as well as the entry from the 1918 Rangliste (which indeed has Weiß down as GM). Kind regards, Sandro And the Rangliste 1918

Sure Andreas, I'll have a look later this week as time permits and will let you know what I find. Kind regards, Sandro

Haus-Ritter-Orden vom Heiligen Hubertus. In the pic, Ludwig III is wearing the matching star in first postion as well. Pic courtesy of Hermann Historica. Kind regards, Sandro

Bingo, well done Christian! I've copied the pages from the reference you quote below, along with Nimmerrichter's entry in the 1936 Schematismus. And I found this on the website of hte österreichische Staatsarchiv, which I think explains the two badges better than the "Österreichs Generäle" entry: Julius Nimmerrichter Geboren am 24.02.1880 zu Aussee. Kadettenschüler. 1901 Bei Infanterieregiment 56 eingetreten. 1905 Luftschifferkurs, bei Kriegsbeginn als Oberleutnant, Kommandant der Festung Ballonabteilung Nr. 1 /Festungsartillerie- Regiment 3. 19.?.1915 Die belagerte Festung Przemysl, im Freiballon verlassen und dabei in russische Kriegsgefangenschaft gefallen. 1918 Nach Flucht zurückgekehrt. Sodann Fliegeroffizier an Piavefront. 1914 Hauptmann. 1920 Major, in das Bundesheer übernommen (Infanterieregiment 1). 1933 Oberst und Kommandant des Infanterieregiment 1. 1936 Bei der Sicherheitsdirektion Steiermark eingeteilt. Gestorben am 19.05.1955 in Mödling. https://www.archivinformationssystem.at/detail.aspx?ID=75738 Kind regards, Sandro

A little puzzle for the Austrian flight badge aficionados (that can be solved with a bit of research using the signed name in the pic, so bring out the books .... ). The question of course is how this gentleman came to wear two flight badges. Kind regards, Sandro Ps - Glenn J. can't play, as he is wayyyyy too good at this kind of thing ......

Very nice set, congrats Brian. Kind regards, Sandro