Streptile

Hello all, My first visit to this subforum, although I see some folks I "know" here. I am trying to do a little research into the AWS type of TWM. Terry, could you possibly direct me to a reverse shot of your AWS type? Or post one? Also, if anyone has a marked AWS, I would be grateful for a photo.

Interesting piece, and in my opinion absolutely not put-together in the sense of being a forgery. Perhaps the pin was replaced? The frame appears to me to be a perfect match to known Type-B 1870 EK frames in use by S-W and (in my opinion) also by Godet. Here is a Type B EK2 from the Jubilee period with what I believe is the same frame, and is certainly the same core. EDIT: grrr.... the file was too big to upload.

Hi Micha, Very nice cross! I had this piece in my hands in the beginning of June and found it to be extremely beautifully manufactured. I think it is a great addition to your collection -- congratulations. MfGruß, Trevor

To be honest it's hard to say from the photos, but I believe both are postwar examples (i.e., fakes). Some closer and clearer shots of the '1939' dates would clinch it for me -- just to make sure they're not potentially good ones, the EK1 with replaced pin.

I've seen a few 1870s mounted backwards, too. I don't think this one has any problems, though -- looks to be a good Type A EK2 from what we can see.

Salut Jérôme! Thank you so much for finding, and posting, this fascinating information. It is precisely the kind of thing I was hoping to read. The snippet from the article that you quoted last could also help explain the case of Capitaine François Guérinat, of course: All things considered, it is quite interesting to me that this decree was promulgated a scant two months into the life if the Government of National Defense. I found the forum was down on both occasions I tried to post yesterday, or I would have posted my Ld'H earlier: While I am interested in an Officer Badge, I decided to start with a Chevalier, as you can see. It is the same one shown in the fist post. Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed so far to helping me learn. Trevor PS: Anyone have thoughts about this question?

I sure am So what makes a Ld'H a "cent gardes" edition? As you can see in my post above, the dealer has labeled this Ld'H a "cent gardes" version and has priced it at £700 or thereabouts, as compared to £200 or so for a "regular" 2nd Empire Chevalier grade cross. Is there something different about it? All I can really see right away is that the crown is different -- but they all are, one from the next -- and that the central medallion has no radiating lines behind the Emperor's head. Am I missing something? Or is it just dealer B.S.? Then let's do it: (Let me know if you need the reverse) By the way, is there a good book on the Ld'H? I mean, for collectors. Discussion of makers and variants, types and materials, that kind of thing. Apart from you good folks, I've found it very difficult to get this kind of super-specific information anywhere.

Hi François, I'm sure you are right -- after reading your post, I checked. The leaves are the default device for the 2nd Restoration pieces. That one I showed does have Napoleon III in the center. What does it mean when a dealer writes "Cent Gardes"? The pieces look to my untrained eye basically like 2nd Empire pieces but are about 5 times more expensive. (I assume it refers to the Cent Gardes of Napoleon III, but what is the difference in the piece?) Trevor

Merci bien, Jérôme. Even as I wrote in my post that the change from the 2nd Empire style to the 3rd Republic style must have happened immediately after Sedan, I realized that it could not have been so easy. Of course the nation was more concerned with instituting a government that could continue the war an expel the Prussians. Designing (and especially manufacturing) a new Ld'H was probably not the highest priority for them. Thank you very much for taking the time to post the interesting photo and story of Capitaine François Guérinat. It has me wondering -- do you think it's possible that there were no actual awards made of the 3rd Republic type Ld'H during the war? That -- given the problems the Government of National Defense was facing -- they did not even commission the new design until after the war was over and the Commune crushed? Another way of asking this question is: are there any well-documented and believable groups from the Franco-Prussian war which contain a 3rd Republic type awarded before the end of the fighting? By the way, I bought the piece shown in the first post here, and I have my eye on a nice Officer's Badge, so thank you Tim and François for your help on that front. I will post some better photos when it arrives from overseas. Finally, any thoughts about the question I raised regarding the crown?

Tim, that's a great link. I hope to be able to contribute to it soon. I think I've seen all the examples you show above in your WAF thread, but it sure is nice to see them all together . This really is a beautiful award, isn't it? François, again, thank you for the explanation of levels. Funny, I never thought to look on Wikipedia. I've now looked at probably two dozen examples of 2nd Empire Ld'H's on various dealer's sites. I notice that they differ in design particulars and quality so much more than (for example) Prussian awards from the same period. The varieties are mind-boggling. Among all the pieces I've looked at -- and for the moment I'm just talking about Knight's Crosses (Chevalier) -- there was one single example that had a rather substantial (it seems to me) variance. Almost all the crowns (and boy are there a lot of different crown shapes) are surrounded by eagles, like this: But this one had something completely different -- leaves of some sort: Is this a standard, acceptable difference? Or do these leaves mean something specific? Finally, let me say one last time that I really appreciate your help, gentlemen. I have found websites dealing with the Ld'H, it's true. But the real minutiae that concerns us as collectors? You just don't find that information there. It's just other collectors who can supply it. So, thank you. Trevor

I love it too! Thank you very much for showing this one, François. So (naturally) you have raised more questions in my mind... I have been looking at "Knight's Crosses." Is that what you show? I don't think so, since the price you quote is above what I've seen Knight's Crosses listed for. Can you explain what "Officer's Badge" means, please? Or a quick summary of the basic grades? How can you tell if it's from the Paris Mint? I think that's what I want -- the basic, awarded version. I field questions from Iron Cross collectors every day (Do you know where I can find a good 65? Is this real? How much should I pay for this? Is this mark the 1st or 2nd type? What core variation is this? What does it mean to have a non-magnetic center? Is my ribbon original? Do you have a L/18 for sale? Is this pin repaired? Have you seen a good W&L EK2 for sale recently? etc., etc.). So now I need some help ... If you see a good one for sale anywhere like yours, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Hey François, Great information, thank you! Seeing as how I don't own a house, I guess I'd better look for one without diamonds Well, I am on the hunt for a good, affordable L d'H from the 2nd Empire. As a side note, I see that some dealers refer to 2nd Empire pieces as "Crimea Period." I know what they mean -- but there's nothing really to indicate that it's specifically from the "Crimea Period" as opposed to, say, 1870, right?

Thanks Tim and François! It's interesting -- I posed this question in four different forums, and no one has yet hazarded an answer (even on the French forum). As for when the L d'H switched over from the 2nd Empire to the 3rd Republic model, I would suppose right after Napoleon surrendered and the Empire collapsed -- the first few days of September, after Sedan. So, now I have some more questions 1) Did 2nd Emprire L d'H Knight's Crosses come in gold, as well as in silver gilt? Basically, I want to pick up one single example of a 2nd Empire L d'H, and I'd like it to be the finest quality available. 2) Are there any "premiere" makers, as there are (to choose an example I'm familiar with) with 1914 Iron Crosses? Specific makers, identifiable by design traits or marks, that are thought to have made the finest examples? I'm interested in anyone's opinions. My very sincere thanks for your replies, fellows. Trevor .

Let me rephrase my question... Some decorations -- famously, in the German states, added swords to denote an award for combat. Was there anything akin to that with the LoH? Or any maker marks or traits of manufacture that would allow one to determine if it was a wartime-made piece? If it is not possible to distinguish a wartime (July 1870 - September 1870) 2nd Empire LoH from a prewar LoH, and someone knows that it is not, please just let me know and put me out my misery!

Any help would be very appreciated! Thank you, Trevor

Thank you both for your replies. I understand that we can never know for sure which foreign order would have been worn with it, but is it possible to make a guess which would be likely? Let's say, from Austria, based on the range of ranks to which the KO2X would have been awarded? I just can't think of a single possibility, as I am still learning this stuff, so a few ideas would be interesting to me. I'm really just curious about all this, nothing more serious than that. Does anyone have a photo or painting of a KO2X in wear with another neck-order on a foreigner?

Hello friends, I have a few questions about this nice Crown Order I hope the experts here can help me with. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the statutory blue ribbon actually belongs with this award (i.e., that this piece was awarded to a soldier in a foreign army allied to Prussia), what other neck-order could have been worn along with it? I am guessing something Bulgarian, or perhaps Turkish? Is there any circumstance in which another German decoration would have been worn with this KO2X, with this ribbon? I ask because the ribbon, as seen below, has two buttons intended to attach another neck-order. I really appreciate your help. Best, Trevor

Really spectacular set. Can we please see closer shots of the mini? Thank you for showing these.

Hello gentlemen, I have a special interest in collecting awards and decorations from the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871, but until now my collection has been limited to Prussian awards (EKs, KDMs, etc). I am looking into adding a Legion D'Honneur Knight's Cross, and have discovered after a brief survey in some of my reference books and on the internet, that there are many different versions of this storied award. Can I please ask your help with some preliminary questions: 1) Which type was awarded during the first (Imperial) phase of the war? 2) Which type was awarded during the second (Republican) phase of the war? 3) Since this was not a strictly military decoration, how can wartime examples be distinguished from pre-war or post-war examples (if this is possible)? To start with I am hoping to find an example from the Imperial phase of the war. Any thoughts on the originality and period of manufacture of the illustrated piece (which I am thinking of possibly buying) will also be very welcome.

Interestingly enough, in Prussia from the beginnings of emancipation in 1812 but especially after 1869, when all legal rights were granted to Jews, through roughly the beginning of WWI, many Jews converted to Christianity (usually Lutheranism but also some to Catholicism). Fritz Stern, who has written extensively on Jewish life in Germany, wrote that by the end of the 19th C., converted Prussian Jews "felt they belonged to the [Christian] group to which their identity papers assigned them. They were Christian by choice and often by faith ... after a generation or two, some children of Jewish descent didn't even know of their Old Testament roots." Intermarriage between converted Jews (or the progeny of converts) and Christians was more common than in almost any other European state. Most did not change their names. Thus Ms. Behre's marriage to Mr. Rosenthal (which I agree is likely a Jewish name) would not have been at all unlikely. She may have been Jewish, but not necessarily so. By the same token, he may well have been a Christian. Remember that it was not until the Third Reich that race, rather than religion, became the determinant of identity. Awesome group, by the way.

Micha, the set is unbelievable. I have a similar FR in the same exact case. Can I see the reverse of the cross (mark and pin) please?

Looks like a cast of a Ninth bead -- doubly fake! Troy -- it's not the number of beads, it's the fact that the ninth bead (counting from left to right) in the crown's headband is protuberant, as this one certainly is.

Hi Troy, Yes I saw those. In my opinion they are not good enough. In any case I would skip this cross in a heartbeat. If you're looking for a good 1870 EK1 I know of a number for sale, 100% good, for less. PM me your email address if you want.

Are you really sure this is a one-piece? For some reason I'm not so sure based on the photos...

I agree. I've seen the '3' with S-W marked EK2s and EK1s (under the pin).