peter monahan

Some more info. (web-dresses after each section) QUEEN'S SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_c...0th_hussars.htm *The vast majority receiving this 4 clasp combination Orange Free State, Transvaal, South Africa 1901 & 1902. Battle Honour: South Africa 1901-02 Here are some army service numbers and corresponding joining dates for the 20th Hussars, 1897 joined on 4th February 1881... 4315 joined on 7th December 1898 4372 joined on 23rd February 1899 4677 joined on 8th October 1901... 4746 joined on 7th October 1902 http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/200...th-hussars.html 20th Hussars Click here for a list of recipients of the QSA. [http://www.angloboerwar.com/units%20imperial/20th_hussars_qsa.htm] Includes ?Nagington, 4507 Private S. QSA (4 bar medal ) The regiment sailed from Bombay, and arrived at Durban in December 1901.? Along with the 3rd Hussars they were brigaded under Colonel Nixon, and took part in the work in the extreme northeast of the Orange River Colony during the final drives. Both regiments of Colonel Nixon's brigade were frequently engaged with the enemy, and their work has been very briefly referred to under the 3rd Hussars. One non-commissioned officer gained mention in despatches by Lord Kitchener during the war, and in his final despatch he mentioned 4 officers and 4 non-commissioned officers.? One officer and 1 man who had been attached to other regiments were mentioned in Lord Roberts' despatch of 4th September 1901. Peter

Some more info. (web-dresses after each section) QUEEN'S SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_c...0th_hussars.htm *The vast majority receiving this 4 clasp combination Orange Free State, Transvaal, South Africa 1901 & 1902. Battle Honour: South Africa 1901-02 Here are some army service numbers and corresponding joining dates for the 20th Hussars, 1897 joined on 4th February 1881... 4315 joined on 7th December 1898 4372 joined on 23rd February 1899 4677 joined on 8th October 1901... 4746 joined on 7th October 1902 http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/200...th-hussars.html 20th Hussars Click here for a list of recipients of the QSA. [http://www.angloboerwar.com/units%20imperial/20th_hussars_qsa.htm] Includes ?Nagington, 4507 Private S. QSA (4 bar medal ) The regiment sailed from Bombay, and arrived at Durban in December 1901.? Along with the 3rd Hussars they were brigaded under Colonel Nixon, and took part in the work in the extreme northeast of the Orange River Colony during the final drives. Both regiments of Colonel Nixon's brigade were frequently engaged with the enemy, and their work has been very briefly referred to under the 3rd Hussars. One non-commissioned officer gained mention in despatches by Lord Kitchener during the war, and in his final despatch he mentioned 4 officers and 4 non-commissioned officers.? One officer and 1 man who had been attached to other regiments were mentioned in Lord Roberts' despatch of 4th September 1901. Peter

Tidy Here's the potted wisdom on the 20th in S.A. The Boer War The 20th remained in England until 1896, being garrisoned successively at Woolwich, Norwich, Aldershot and Colchester, and then returned to India where they served uneventfully for the next six years, being stationed throughout this time at Mhow, until they were sent to South Africa to take part in the closing stages of the Boer War. Here they took part in Kitchener's operations against the Boer "commandos" of Transvaal and Orange Free State, participating in the fighting of the early months of 1902. The 20th was at Heilbron in the Orange Free State when peace was declared in May, 1902. Owing to their late arrival in the theatre of operations their casualties were light in the extreme; just eight other ranks lost. Here are most if not all the London Gazette entries for the 20th: they may only have lost 8 ORs, but they also lost a Colonel, who got a DSO for his work (commanding the 6th Infantry Brigade. Check the Gazette for May 7th - it describes whtaver action it was that saw him killed so there may be more info. on the regiment. London Gazette, 4 January 1901 20th Hussars, Corporal Arthur Little, from the Imperial Yeomanry (recommended by the Field- Marshal Commanding-in-chief, South Africa), to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 5th January, 1901. London Gazette, 19 February 1901 Major (local Lieutenant-Colonel) G. A. Cookson, Indian Staff Corps, to be graded as an Assistant Adjutant-General, and to retain the local rank of Lieutenant-Colonel whilst commanding the 6th Corps of Mounted Infantry, vice Major (local Lieutenant-Colonel) N. Legge, D.S.O., 20th Hussars, killed in action. Dated 14th December, 1900. London Gazette, 7 May 1901 Lieuleuant-Colonel N. Legge (20th Hussars), a valuable leader of mounted troops, I regret to say, fell early in this action. London Gazette, 27 September, 1901 20th Hussars. To be a Companion of the Order of the Bath. Major Norton Legge, D.S.O. (since killed in action). Finally, you can write to the National Archives and get a copy of great granfer's service records. Google "National Archives + service records + 1900-1913" and you can get the "WO" number you'll need to request specific service records. Good luck! Peter

One of Kipling's finest examples of this sort is in a longish story about a young American couple (rich) who rent and then buy an empty estate in rural Sussex. It turns out they have accidently re-acquired the home of an emigrant ancestor of his. The housekeeper, without a word to them, has written to New England, where they're from - they figure she doen't know how to read - and gets the staunch villigers in Maine to verify their story. So they are "our kind". On Sunday of the week they buy it they are met at the village church door by the verger and escorted to the 'family' pew and afterwards the local nobs, who have never addressed them before, invite them to lunch because "You're one of us.", unlike the stinking rich 'merchant' down the road, who's lived there 20 years and has never been spoken to by anyone! And as they leave church the village lines up to curtsy and tug their forelocks to the new master and his mistress (missus). Very chauvinist, very Kipling, very very pre-WWI British! A colleague at school is "from Prince Edward Island": not born there, never lived there but has parents and grandparents who did. So she's an Islander. Her nearest neighbour down there (and in Ontario too) has lived there 30+ years but she , and her kids, are "from aways", which really frosts her butt. Anybody who talks about friendliness in small towns has never ever lived in one! Sure, we're polite to most everybody and even helpful, but if you don't know who a man's granfer was you can't know what kind of man he is and so don't trust him with local gossip or sordid secrets. Gotta love it :cheers:

Two vaguely related tidbits: James Thom, an historian and writer from Indiana has written a very decent novel on the San Patricios called "Saint Patrick's Battalion" and illustrated with his own drawings. Quite a good read! and published in 2006-07, so still easily available. Many years ago my wife and I were given a tour of bits of downtown London by a chap I knew and one of the more fascinating stops was in an alley/entrance way to a block of flats. The wll bears a plaque, "not even the taxi drivers know about' my friend claimed, commemorating "The site of the Legation of the Republic of Texas to the Court of St. James" and the dates - 3 or 4 years - which I can't recall. Really cool! Peter

Wouldn't a general wear a sword as opposed to a bayonet? Peter

Rick I should think he probably did. All those crosses will have been replaced by CWGC stones, so recognizable from all the Allied cemeteries in Europe. Kipling was in fact one of the persons instrumental in the formation of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which is now of course responsible for the maintenance of graves of soldiers from Commonwealth countries killed in WWI, WWII, Korea, and many conflicts. Kipling's efforts, and the 3 volume History of the Irish Guards he wrote were a memorial to his son Jack, lost on the Western Front while serving with the Guards. And, truth being stranger than fiction, Jack Kipling was found not many years ago. He had apparently taken shelter from shelling in the cellar of a wrecked house, where his body was buried in 1917(?) and discovered by workmen on a building project within the last decade.. The ID was made based on the uniform and rank and a half-written letter in a monogrammed cigarette case. Sadly, Kipling lost an infant daughter as well, to illness, during the 2-3 years when he lived in America. It was after that he moved to Sussex and wrote many stories of rural England - including the Puck of Pook's Hill tales. His stories from that period (1890's) focused on the sturdy English yeomen, loyal, hard working, phlegmatic and very suspicious of 'foreigners', 'foreign' being defined as 'from further than 5 miles away, from any city, or having arrived in England after 1066.

Sergey That was my feeling too - and I know nothing about Russian stuff! The headliners, as I mentioned to Pavel, are far too clean - look brand spanking new, in fact. That plus rarity value makes an old cynic like me very very wary. Glad I'm not the only one. Peter

Pavel The helmets are those of the Russian Imperial Guard. There is a little info. at this site: http://www.mannerheim.fi/05_s_ura/e_kaarti.htm Having said that, and from what little I can see of them in the small photos, they seem to be in "as new" condition, which is odd for items which must be 100 years old at the very least. I notice, for example, what looks like the liner: white canvas or linen. It looks as if it has never been in contact with human hair: no oil, no sweat, no marks at all. Very strange for an antique. As to value, couldn't begin to say but if authentic and capable of being proved so, LOTS of money. My two cents worth. Peter

Yes, the U.S.S. CONSTITUTION is the oldest wooden (sailing) warship still in commission,afloat AND sailing. Friends of mine form part of the "crew", portraying U.S. Marines of the 1812-1815 period. Apparently it gets interesting when they enter ab active US Navy yard with guns and black powder and meet a gate guy who hasn't read all the memos before starting duty! And the don't just sail her out for a turn around, though I don't think she leaves Boston Harbour: some of my friends have actually fired a 32 pounder "Long Tom" from her deck. Way cool! And Mr. Allan is right too: HMS VICTORY, Nelson's flagship, is still in commission and still afloat but hasn't left her moorings in decades. So, each unique in her own way.

Now there's a man with esoteric interests! Good on ya, mate! Do let us know if you find anything, please. Peter

If you google "Zulu" and get modern images of "ethnic dress" some of the women are wearing what must amount to several stone weight worth of beads! Literally covered from knee to thigh, up both arms and around the body as well. Makes the old story about the Dutch buying Manhattan for beads a little more credible. Same thing happens here with Native American dance troupes, who go all out to 'out-wow' each other with more, bigger and shinier costumes. sadly, again, many of these younger people have probably not seen the originals from which their own costumes have evolved which are, to my eyes, far more attractive. But, time marches on. So far I haven't seen any beadwork with iPods worked into the design, but it's only a matter of time. I recall buying a traditional cotton blanket from a Fulani craftsman in Nigeria in 1980 and only years later figuring out that the 'runic' looking designs woven into the border were the letters representing the names of the major political parties in the 1980 elections: "PRP" for the People's Redemption Party and so on! And this from a man who was almost certainly illiterate. Weird world we live in. Peter

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Another model

This vehicle has been converted to a "tank recovery" vehicle - used to tow disabled tanks off the battlefield for repair. I believe that the shovel would be lowered into the ground to anchor the tank before it tried to pull another tank out of mud, so that the recovery vehicle wouldn't be pulled backwards when the cable tightened. The small 'mast' sticking up is part of the towing apparatus, I think. Hope this helps. Peter

Assuming these are Boer War finds, which the shrapnel shell makes pretty much a certainty, then the bullets will be either Lee Enfield (if British) or some variant of Mauser (if Boer), though the latter is not a sure thing, as obviously Boer commandos (militia) used whatever rifles were around the farm when they left for war. There should be markings on the cartridge casing as well, round the base in a circle, which might tell you at least nationality if legible. Fascinating find. Do you know where they were picked up? Peter

Mervyn & Helen Fantastic stuff! I have read of the head rings before and that resin or wax was used to harden and hold together but I'd never heard of the gruesome custom of putting bounites on them. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me. Many people 'know' about the Native American custom of sca;ping dead foes but most don't know that the custom was in fact restricted to a small number of tribes/cultures until the Europeans arrived and began paying for scalps - the french for British scalps and vice versa. In fact I recall reading that a major reason for Texas finally lifting the bounty on Apache scalps, well after the American Civil War, was to do with the fact that scalps from peaceful Mexican farmers were far easier to collect and could not be readily distinguisehed from the hair of 'good Indians'. (General Phil Sheridan, who helped 'pacify' the American West famously remarked that "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." Mervyn, I have to call you on one thing. The idea of boot hobs being pried off for use as ornaments is a charming one but not, I fear very likely. One of my odder pastimes is hobnailing boots for fellow military re-enactors. Hobs properly installed actually peen over into a 'J" or fishhook shape most of the time and are the blazes to pull out, even using cobblers pinchers built for the job. Also, the metal ornaments on the drinking/powder horn are not hobnails, which are square (pyramidal, not hemispherical or conical) by mid-nineteenth century and have grooves in all four faces. The metal on the horn look to be the brass tacks sold for ornament and in great numbers by the British - many many American native weapons and artifacts display decorative patterns picked out in tacks and I suspect they were used in Africa as well. They are still around as "furniture nails". Wonderful information. Thanks to both of you for sharing the photos and your knowledge. Peter

Palencia I know nothing about Turkish orders but it strikes me that the ends of the two hooks on your piece are very rough - just the way they would have been after wire cutters were used. Or is that just the photo.? Anyway, it seems odd to me that on a fancy enameled piece the maker wouldn't have bothered to round off and file smooth the points. Just my two cents worth Peter

Mervyn Can't prove you wrong, nor do I wish to. Being told that it was a) military and b) particular to a certain rank are certainly reasons to think and say so. I'm cursed [or blessed] with my father's philosophical dictums - he is a D. Phil. - and many years arguing with adolescents. I always fall back on the scientific dictum that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." While the notion that this is military fly whisk is hardly "extraordinary" in any sense, I jumped at and on the notion that you had no reason not to think... as opposed to having reasons X and Y to believe it was... . My apologies. BTW, fly whisks are also still carried as emblems of authority in West Africa - specifically, in northern Nigeria. Or were 20+ years ago when I was there for a while. Please keep posting treasures from your seemingly bottomless treasure chest! Peter

Good eye, Harrier! :cheers:

My only contribution is to wonder whether the fact that the thing is named [identified] means it's military. I would think that in the civilian world the assumption would be that you'd know what it was before you bought it and only matelots and squaddies had to have everything named and labelled: "Shoe, leather, feet for the covering of". :rolleyes:

Mervyn I re-enact the War of 1812-14 -Britain & Canada vs the US - a minor offshoot of the Napoleonic conflicts in Europe. I regularly fire a modern repro. of a Bess with powder only and have shot with ball a few times. Not something I'd try with a period weapon! I love my clumsy little fingers right where they are. Helen You mention a 'repeated pattern' on the butt stock. This may be a clue as to where the piece was made. A friend once owned a 'hill made' copy of a Martini-Henry carbine, made in Peshawar bazaar or up in the Khyber country. Every part was numbered but no two numbers the same - 366, 363, 663, 666, etc - as the maker apparently only had two number stamps. Then, for the look of the thing or to add to the magic, he had stamped circular and floral patterns on the wood work, using the '3' stamp repeatedly. So, the 'wall gun' could be a local (ie Asian) copy too. more photos eagerly awaited. Peter

Mervyn I re-enact the War of 1812-14, a minor North American offshoot of the Napoleonic conflict. So I regularly fired Modern repro. of a Bess with powder only but have shot ball ammunition as well. Not too bad a kick as long as you're expecting it. Helen The repeated stamp - I believe you said on the butt? - may be a clue as to where this piece was made. A friend once owned a "hill made" copy of a Martini Henry carbine. The gunsmith - Peshawur bazaar or somewhere in Afgfhanistan - had faithfully copied the British original, including serial numbers opn all the pieces. However he apparently only had two number stamps - a '3' and a '6' - so after numbering the pieces, each with a different combination of those two digits [363, 663, 366 etc] he had stamped litlle decorative designs into the stock using the numbers as well. Peter

"I have no reason not to believe that it was part of the regalia for a Sirdar" A really lovely piece indeed but, at the risk of sounding like a smart a**, I have to echo Thomas: what evidence is there to suggest that it IS a rank badge/token? Peter