Great Dane Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Hello all,I'm trying to research a Persian Order - Order of the Lion and Sun - which is part of a mounted group in my collection.I've read C. P. Mulders booklet "Persian Orders 1808-1925", but I'm still a bit in the dark. In the literature list there is a reference to an article in 'The Medal Collector Sept./Oct. 1957' by Klietmann titled "History of the Lion and Sun Order of Persia".Does any of you have access to this article?P.S: When I claim to be in the dark it's actually quite an understatement - I'm not even sure the Order in question is The Order of the Lion and Sun... Thanks in advance,/Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Let me look, I may have that one. Most of the OMSA pieces in those days were pretty much written to formula and Dr. K contributed many pieces (usually with pretty good information). A shame most of this is lost. Though Bob Wehrlich "borrowed" some of it for his book.There are some other good sources, but I shall have to exchavate -- and they may be in Farsi.Could you post the group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 Ed, your wish is my command... The only information the seller had about this group was that it had belonged to "a railway engineer working in Persia". From the two other orders I would date it to somewhere around the 1920s.Notice that the Lion and Sun is made separately (of metal) and fixed to the handpainted center disc. The order is gold colored, but I'm not sure it's gold. There are no markings on the back.Although Mulder mentions that at some point there was 89(!) different grades/classes of The Order of the Lion and Sun (and 6-8 different colors of the ribbons/sashes), I simply can't fit this one in...All the experts I have asked so far have given up. It's quite a mystery./Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Oh . . . oh . . . simply lovely. And worth working to try to figure out. Shall confront boxes of files and back issues of JOMSA tomorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 A little more about my research so far:First I thought that maybe the red ribbon was for the French Legion d'Honneur and somebody had swapped the badge, but then I saw this picture on the website of a Swedish dealer (see below). Unfortunately all he knew about that group was "A group of persian medals.../Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 And another search on the internet brought up this picture (but again without any info whatsoever...):/Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 BTW: Thanks for the kind words, Ed At one point I thought I finally had nailed it down. In Morton and Eden's auction catalog from 18. July 2006 (lot 136) this order (see picture below) is described as "Iran, Order of Arts and Science (Nishan-i-Ilmi), founded 1852, First class breast badge, third-quarter of the 19th century, of Iranian manufacture, in gold, with enamelled centre."Then I discovered the very same picture used in Morton and Eden's auction catalog from 25. May 2005 (lot 427), but then the text was"Qajar, Order of the Lion and Sun (Homayoun), Civil Division, mid-19th century, of Iranian manufacture, superior grade breast badge, in gold, the centre bearing a lion couchant and sun in gold and enamels, surrounded by a gold ten rayed badge."So Persian orders seems to be a mystery to the experts at Morton and Eden too However whatever that one is, I'm not sure mine is similar. Notice the ten-pointed star and the ornamented circle around the center disc./Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 I've got the medal bar of the Hamburg-America Line's 1920s Commodore, which did NOT come with his awarded pre-1914 Commander grade of this Order... and I've never been able to figure out what would have been correct for that time to ever risk one for display.But until this thread I had NEVER seen a metal lion in the center, always handpainted, nor EVER seen a red ribbon, only the green. I know the standing, fierce lion gripping a sword was for Muslims, but that's all I could ever figure out. This makes things MORE complicated, not less! Shall be watching this with great interest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 The Swedish dealer's group is quite interesting, because I think some information can be deduced from it:- That recipient was awarded the Order of S&L twice (the two green ribbons) with and without the 'thingy' on top. And as the unknown order (red ribbon) is in the same group but in a quite different design, that could indicate that the unknown order is not the Order of S&L.- The two green-ribboned Orders of S&L are clearly pre-Pahlavi era (i.e. awarded before 1925) because they have the old design (in 1925 the design was 'modernized' and it was renamed Nishan-i-Homayoun), and this might indicate that the unknown order is also a pre-Pahlavi order.Rick, I also read somewhere that the standing lion holding a sword was for Muslims but Mulder writes that this only indicates a military award, while the lion lying down is the civilian version.../Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 The additional complexity was that these badges were made up by so many European makers to "improve" on the quality and design of the Iranian insigniae.The standing lion/lying lion does seem to indicate no more than a civil/military division, and not a religious categorisation. As most civil awards went to foreign "experts" in Iran (most of whom were Christians) we see the source of this confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Ahhhhh, that makes sense about the sword/lambikins lion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Here you can see an award document for this order.And here the translation:This pictures are a part of my website to General Gossler.Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 13, 2006 Author Share Posted August 13, 2006 Very nice document However, I'm still not sure if the order in question actually is the Order of the Lion and Sun (I'm more and more convinced that it isn't...)/Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Ed, if this is an improvement, I think they did a poor job KRPeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 My goodness, what an ugly specimen I can understand nations that doesn't have the financial means or the resources to make 'jeweller beauties', but this was made in Sweden by Sporrong?!Are you sure it isn't a theater piece???/Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 (edited) No., no. Nothing to do with Lion and Sun here. This is the Phalavi-era Order of Honor (Nishan-e-Ifitkhar), est. 1937. Now maybe you understand why the Revolution took place? Yuri shows some of the Phalavi-era awards at http://www.netdialogue.com/yy/Asia/Iran/KIran/Iran.htmHe also has, by the way, and extensive Lion and Sun page -- http://www.netdialogue.com/yy/Asia/Iran/Pe...Sun/LionSun.htm -- but has more nice images than insightful text (though I have to "Babel Fish" his text). You may want to glance, also, at Christopher Buyers' site: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Persia/Orders/persia-orders.htm -- he has some of the better information around on the Nishan-i-Shir u Khurshid (Lion & Sun) at http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Persia/Orders/lionsun.htmUntil we get someone with good Farsi to look at the original sources we'll be in trouble and there'll be confusion.Still seeking Dr. K's piece, by the way. Moving boxes and stacke of papers around. What my wife calls "cleaning my office". Edited August 14, 2006 by Ed_Haynes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 Thanks for the links, Ed.I've been there already, without getting any wiser unfortunately... Maybe I should start taking Farsi classes just to solve this mystery /Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Ed, didn't mean do obfuscate the wiewers, I wrongly assumed you meant all Persian Orders.Mike, we seem to share the same thoughts in regards of quality KRPeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 I was just talking to one of the few Iranian collectors around and he identifies the piece with the two Dannebrog badges as the Order of Science, first class.The order comes in three classes (1st - gilt, on a red ribbon with rosette; 2nd - silver, blue ribbon with rosette; 3rd - bronze, blue ribbon without rosette). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 Excellent news, Jeff Finally some light at the end of the tunnel Now I have a starting point for further investigation./Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 (edited) Jeff,Is this Order of Science similar to the one I had doubts about in posting #7 (Nishan-i-Ilmi)? I have only seen that one with a ten-pointed star./Mike Edited August 14, 2006 by Great Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Jeff,Is this Order of Science similar to the one I had doubts about in posting #7 (Nishan-i-Ilmi)? I have only seen that one with a ten-pointed star./MikeYes, and that is why I'd rejected the Nishan-i-Ilmi -- but, who knows.See: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Persia/Orders/ilmi.htmYet, at least from what Buyers has, it doesn't feel 100% right.1st class - 9 points2nd and 3rd class - six-armed "cross"4th class - medalHe describes the 1st class:. . . a nine-pointed star in silver with plain rays grouped in threes. In the centre, a round disk bearing the image of a "civil" lion facing left and reclining on a desert ground. The background illuminated by a sun in splendour rising above the horizon beyond, all fully enamelled in natural colours. The disk surroumded by a wide enamelled band with raised edges. The uppermost arm of the star attached to a suspension loop for the ribbon. The width is 5.8 cm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 Hmm... so even here there is an inconsistency between Buyers nine-pointed star (1. class) and Morton & Eden's ten-pointed star... However, if Jeff's source is sure about the ribbon descriptions, then that's the best lead I've had so far.../Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Hmm... so even here there is an inconsistency between Buyers nine-pointed star (1. class) and Morton & Eden's ten-pointed star... However, if Jeff's source is sure about the ribbon descriptions, then that's the best lead I've had so far.../MikeAgreed, agreed. I just wish we knew more with some basis in serious research in primary sources!!! Usually, auction houses are poor sources for things outside their focus (and often not so good even there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHieronymus Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Hello Mike, I believe that the three orders you have shown on this forum belonged to my great uncle, Civil Engineer Joergen Saxild. Joergen Saxild (6.6.1891 - 21.3.1975) was one of the three founders of Kampsax A/S, which, following great success building railways in Turkey, won the contract in 1933 to complete the 1000 km trans-Iranian railway link between Bendar Schah and Bendar Schapur on the Caspian Sea. The project was successfully completed in 1938 ahead of schedule. Joergen Saxild was awarded the Ridder of Dannebrog in 1931, followed by Dannebrogsmaendenes Haederstegn in 1937. I believe that he received the Persian Order of the Lion and Sun (Commander class) from the Shah of Persia following the successful completion of the above railway project - the family have photos of him together with the Shah of Persia. These are the three orders shown in your photo. Joergen Saxild later received three further orders of the Dannebrog - Commander (1952), Commander 1st Class (1961) and Grand Cross (1969). Joergen Saxild was the younger brother of my father's mother, Fru Agnete Laub (born Saxild). You can find further information about Joergen Saxild in Gyldendal's Den Store Danske Biografisk Leksikon, Krak's Blaa Bog and in his memoir - 'En Dansk ingenioer's erindringer' published in 1971. I am myself a member of Ordenshistorisk Selskab in Denmark, the British Orders and Medals Research Society and the Victoria Cross Society. I would have liked to have owned this collection of some of my great uncle's orders, but you were there when they were offered for sale! I hope this information is of interest to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now