Soviet Valor medal rarity?

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

I saw this on one of the Ebay auctions for a Valor or Bravery medal. It's out of Estonia. I'd not heard of this so thought I'd post it here for comments and additional information.

[attachmentid=49343]

[attachmentid=49344]

[attachmentid=49340]

Short and wide tracks on the tank... short being to the left and wide to the right. I believe the short one is supposed to be the rarer variation. It's more noticeable towards the bottom tracks.

Has anyone else heard of this? Is this indeed a true variation and if so, just how rare are they?

Thanks,

Dan

[NavyFCO]

Dan-

I know this doesn't help you, but I can barely tell the difference between the two... I think the "new variation" is just a way to charge more for a common medal. I can remember back when, for example, "an OGPW1 is an OGPW1." It was either hanging or not. If was on a hanger it was one price, if it wasn't, it was another. Nowadays you have the "Variation such-and-such Type such-and-such Subtype such-and-such with the mintmark pressed in the XX o'clock position with slight curvature of the "M" on Monetni that as made with a press operating at XX psi versus the standard XX psi with the arms of the star at the XX and XX positions instead of the common XX position... Therefore it's worth TEN MILLION DOLLARS."

Sorry to sound crass, but who cares?

Or maybe I've been around just too darn long to see charging different prices on "rare" variations that were made because an employee at the Mint came in with a hangover on the day that they were made...

Dave

[Hauptmann]

Dan-

I know this doesn't help you, but I can barely tell the difference between the two... I think the "new variation" is just a way to charge more for a common medal. I can remember back when, for example, "an OGPW1 is an OGPW1." It was either hanging or not. If was on a hanger it was one price, if it wasn't, it was another. Nowadays you have the "Variation such-and-such Type such-and-such Subtype such-and-such with the mintmark pressed in the XX o'clock position with slight curvature of the "M" on Monetni that as made with a press operating at XX psi versus the standard XX psi with the arms of the star at the XX and XX positions instead of the common XX position... Therefore it's worth TEN MILLION DOLLARS."

Sorry to sound crass, but who cares?

Or maybe I've been around just too darn long to see charging different prices on "rare" variations that were made because an employee at the Mint came in with a hangover on the day that they were made...

Dave

Hi Dave,

I know we've already discussed this a bit on the side... but felt I should make a quick post too.

I agree on many of the types and variations, etc. they've "discovered" over time. Other than a very few, I feel it's become yet another way for dealers to pick our pockets just a little more, putting out alot of hype about how great it is, etc. and then tempting us to dig deep to be the only one on our block to own one.

In this instance that doesn't seem to be the case as the dealer in question does not have it posted as an unreasonable amount, even for just a normal version of this medal.

Again my main reasons for the post were to find out if I was the only one out here who didn't know about this, and if so to learn more. Or to let everyone else in on it and see a mad rush to check all their Bravery medals to see if they have on of this type.

Anyhow, I do hope that perhaps some info surfaces on this. Most likely just a slight redesign on one of the dies somewhere along the way. It's a very minor and subtle different and you have to look at the base of the tracks to really see it. To me, I think it would be neat to own both types, but I totally agree that it's nothing I'd pay a premium to own.

Thanks,

Dan

[order_of_victory]

Dan,

You have done it now, I thought that my un-numbered Bravery meda was bog stanard but on closer inspection today I notice that mine is a small track version.

Does this make it rare or special , looking through the red bible, the only one with full tracks is the Type 2 Five sided suspension

Heres a pic of mine

Order of Victory

Edited August 10, 2006 by order_of_victory

[Hauptmann]

Dan,

You have done it now, I thought that my un-numbered Bravery meda was bog stanard but on closer inspection today I notice that mine is a small track version.

Does this make it rare or special , looking through the red bible, the only one with full tracks is the Type 2 Five sided suspension

Heres a pic of mine

Order of Victory

Terrific! Could you try to scan a closer pic of it like in my original post? I've only checked one of mine so far... have had a gazillion things hit me this morning... but I'm hoping.

No idea as to the rarety on these... only what the dealer stated in the auction.

Thanks,

Dan

[Gerd Becker]

Dan-

I know this doesn't help you, but I can barely tell the difference between the two... I think the "new variation" is just a way to charge more for a common medal. I can remember back when, for example, "an OGPW1 is an OGPW1." It was either hanging or not. If was on a hanger it was one price, if it wasn't, it was another. Nowadays you have the "Variation such-and-such Type such-and-such Subtype such-and-such with the mintmark pressed in the XX o'clock position with slight curvature of the "M" on Monetni that as made with a press operating at XX psi versus the standard XX psi with the arms of the star at the XX and XX positions instead of the common XX position... Therefore it's worth TEN MILLION DOLLARS."

Sorry to sound crass, but who cares?

Or maybe I've been around just too darn long to see charging different prices on "rare" variations that were made because an employee at the Mint came in with a hangover on the day that they were made...

Dave

Dave, sell me your Type 1 OPW?s for 500 Dollar, okay? I mean, who cares?

Many of the Variation-Collectors bring this hobby forward. The most of us haven?t handled 500 groups or have the funds to buy everything, we want, but only our single pieces, which we focus on. For me it is interesting, who made this orders when and where and to find out the small diffences between the mints and runs. As i keep the most of what i buy and research the most of them, i also want to put them in a contect concerning their production. I guess, i wouldn?t care either, if i had your options. But i have not.

I agree on the 10 Million Dollar part though... A lot of variations are ridicilously overpriced. And now to start to overcharge for "rare" variations of common medals or orders is even more stupid.

Gerd

[Mondvor]

Very interesting discussion, gentlemen. I want to tell my opinion on this topic.

We are all different. And every collector decides by himself what to collect. For example I have a friend Alex Filer (you know him probably) and he only collects screwback orders. He would buy screwback Red Banner but he is not interested in suspension variation of the same award. The other friend of mine collects only Red Stars. But he is buying every tiny variation of this order and also buying Red Stars from every 10.000 number range. It looks strange, but this is his way.

So I think, that it is very personal what to buy and how much to pay. I know people in Russia who are crazy about awards with "mint mistakes". Sometimes they pay 5 times of the regular price to get this item. I would never do the same, but I respect their point of view.

Maybe you know that I'm running a web site about Soviet Awards. So I'm trying to describe every little variation or sub-variation of particular order or medal. Even though I'm not interested in small sub-variations (I more prefer to study the story of the award), but I would describe them to help variation-lovers.

I guess that the more classification is full and detailed, the more it useful. Some people can collect only "types", some can extend their collections to "variations" and some may have fun going deeper into "subvariations".

Also you all know that prices are extremely high today. Lets say I have already bought all cheap types and variations. But I can not afford to spend thousands of dollars for expensive staff. But I'm a collector and my instinct pushes me to buy something new. What should I do in this case? Right, I would go to subvariations.

About this variation of Bravery medal with short "wing". It is well known variation on Russian market. But it is not very rare ore unique. It has very clear number ranges and probably is a result of die press-form reparing. BTW my grandfather got this variation of Bravery medal.

So it's all up to you wether or not to buy it If you still have a chance to obtain it for regular Type 2 Bravery price, then do not hesitate...

[order_of_victory]

MONDVOR,

You say very clear number range, mine seems to have it and mine does not seem to have a number and its order book is daed 1967

BTW I would just be happy with one of every order

Order of Victory

[Mondvor]

MONDVOR,

You say very clear number range, mine seems to have it and mine does not seem to have a number and its order book is daed 1967

BTW I would just be happy with one of every order

Order of Victory

I was talking about "short wing" variation. The medal that you displayed has "long wing", it is visible even from the small picture.

[Hauptmann]

I was talking about "short wing" variation. The medal that you displayed has "long wing", it is visible even from the small picture.

Many thanks for joining in. This one is getting good as I'd kind of hoped it would.

So, on the original pic from the sale:

[attachmentid=49557]

I take it the "short wing" variation is that pictured to the left and the "long wing" that which is pictured on the right, correct?

Thanks,

Dan

[Mondvor]

Many thanks for joining in. This one is getting good as I'd kind of hoped it would.

So, on the original pic from the sale:

[attachmentid=49557]

I take it the "short wing" variation is that pictured to the left and the "long wing" that which is pictured on the right, correct?

Thanks,

Dan

Dan, "short wing" is on the right and common "long wing" is on the left. When I come home from my job I can post comparative pictures of those variations as well as the number range for "short wing".

[Hauptmann]

Dan, "short wing" is on the right and common "long wing" is on the left. When I come home from my job I can post comparative pictures of those variations as well as the number range for "short wing".

Many thanks, that would be a huge help. I think I'm looking at the wrong part. I'm looking at the bottom tread which on the left which doesn't look as wide as the bottom tread pictured on the right.

Perhaps if you could also mark or circle in one of the pics what it is we need to be looking at that would be a great help as well.

Many thanks,

Dan

[rboomsma]

Dave, sell me your Type 1 OPW?s for 500 Dollar, okay? I mean, who cares?

Many of the Variation-Collectors bring this hobby forward. The most of us haven?t handled 500 groups or have the funds to buy everything, we want, but only our single pieces, which we focus on. For me it is interesting, who made this orders when and where and to find out the small diffences between the mints and runs. As i keep the most of what i buy and research the most of them, i also want to put them in a contect concerning their production. I guess, i wouldn?t care either, if i had your options. But i have not.

I agree on the 10 Million Dollar part though... A lot of variations are ridicilously overpriced. And now to start to overcharge for "rare" variations of common medals or orders is even more stupid.

Gerd

On variations, many of us collect them, I know I do. I can't afford the the several thousand dollar orders.

Here is just a few of my examples:

[rboomsma]

On variations, many of us collect them, I know I do. I can't afford the the several thousand dollar orders.

Here is just a few of my examples:

the backs 5 variations for type 2

[rboomsma]

my chinese friendship medals I have 5 variations of this one.

[Mondvor]

Dan, here we go. I put red circles on those "long" and "short" wings. Sorry, I have no idea what is the correct name for this part of a tank.

[rboomsma]

my chinese friendship medals I have 5 variations of this one.

Tha back side

[Hauptmann]

Dan, here we go. I put red circles on those "long" and "short" wings. Sorry, I have no idea what is the correct name for this part of a tank.

Closest I could come is "Fenders". I now see the difference. The way the seller had described it it seemed it had something to do with the tracks. But I now see that one fender is much wider than the other.

Many thanks for posting this. Clears everything up on this one.

Thanks!

Dan

[Hauptmann]

Hi Ron,

Great pics! Many thanks for posting them. Quite a variety of both types of award.

Thanks for sharing.

Dan

[rboomsma]

Hi Ron,

Great pics! Many thanks for posting them. Quite a variety of both types of award.

Thanks for sharing.

Dan

I never realized there were so many different variations of the Chinese friendship medal, I wonder if I got them all now?

[Gerd Becker]

I never realized there were so many different variations of the Chinese friendship medal, I wonder if I got them all now?

I think, these are all versions, Ron.

I try to get as many variations together of ORB?s and OPW 2nd classes and Red Stars, as these offer a lot of varieties and subvarieties and the common ones are still quite affordable. Of course i will never be able to own one of the very early types, but i really don?t care. I have a lot of fun to hunt for a variation, which is still missing in my collection. I buy groups too, but try to get groups with variations, i don?t have already.

[NavyFCO]

Guys:

Sorry for seeming a bit outspoken by this, but one of my few "buttons" that can be pushed in the Soviet collecting world is the tendency for some folks to find every variation possible and charge excessive amounts for those variations. I am aware that most Soviet awards collectors (especially when considering those in Russia) are actually more "variation" than "historical" collectors, so I do have to appreciate the position of the majority, even if I cannot completely understand it myself.

Part of this sensitivity comes from a really neat little group I once sold that had a nice photo of the recipient and his wife, a couple orders, and then the fellow's jubilee medals with all documents. I researched the group and it had nice combat citations.

I sold the group and not more than two weeks later I saw the buyer list all of the jubilee medals and documents up on eBay! I quickly e-mailed the seller who promptly told me that he wasn't interested in any part of the group other than one of the orders that was a rare subvariation, and that he could really care less about anything else with the group!

I was floored! For all these years, the group had been kept together, and then, just because someone wanted to fill a blank hole in their collection, they decide to split the group - and to what value? Maybe $20 for the jubliee medals with documents? How hard would it have been to have simply put those in a ziploc bag and kept those with the group???

I started collecting Soviet awards because I thought they were neat looking and I really appreciated the suffering the people of the USSR faced for many years. By owning the awards it was my way to connect myself and in a physical sense understand what they went through. Thus, when we started researching groups in about 1996/7, that fit my collecting interests perfectly - I could find out EXACTLY who the person was who earned the award and what they did for it. To me, that became the joy of collecting Soviet awards, far and above that of German or Mongolian awards - which are "pretty", but are all too often untraceable to exactly who the recipient was and the sacrifices they made to earn that award.

So to me, I can understand the position of the person who collect variations, though as I said above, I'm not one of them. It does sadden me greatly to see groups get split as I saw that one get split because of someone wanting a rare variation to fill a hole in their collection. That sort of thing makes me wonder if a person like that might not be better at collecting something like bottlecaps, or perhaps baseball cards, that do not serve as reminders of people's sacrifice in war, and can fulfill a person's need to collect every different style and type.

That's just my opinion, and I know that it isn't shared by many people reading this. We're all different, and that's okay.

Thanks for reading.

Dave

[Gerd Becker]

Dave,

i agree completely with you and we are collecting for the same reasons. The main fascination of this hobby are the stories behind this awards and the suffering, the awardees went through to get it. I think, i don?t need to say, that i would never split up a group just to keep a variation, how rare it may be.

The story with the group, you sold, is a Bummer. Many people are just too lazy to keep everything together, i guess. Unbelievable!

Gerd

[rboomsma]

Guys:

So to me, I can understand the position of the person who collect variations, though as I said above, I'm not one of them. It does sadden me greatly to see groups get split as I saw that one get split because of someone wanting a rare variation to fill a hole in their collection.

Dave

Dave

I think most of us would agree that splitting up a documented group for one medal is stupid.

I have one group with one variation I was looking for. But I have kept the group together.

But I got my variation too.

To break apart any documented group knowing the history and what that pereson did to earn them is a crime.

[NavyFCO]

I try to get as many variations together of ORB?s and OPW 2nd classes and Red Stars...

You see, some people might see only variations of medals in this photo that Gerd posted. For me, I see eight stories... eight different stories of eight different people who sacrificed for their country and families.

Any one of these medals could have belonged to a Regimental Commander who led his men in a charge into the German guns, or there could be a medal to an air ace, for shooting down his fifth kill. Or perhaps, there is a medal there to a man who provided fuel and supplies to the frontline, and being solely responsible for the furthering of a division or army as they advanced to Berlin. Or perhaps there could simply be a long-service award there to a man who served in an unremarkable job for 20 years....but suffered through four years of death and destruction, with many of those close to him - and perhaps even his own family - slaughtered by the invading Germans.

To a person who purely collects variations, these are simply eight different pieces of metal, with some pretty enamel on them. For what they are worth to them, they could walk up to a veteran, remove this peice of metal from the veteran's chest, look the veteran in the eye and tell him: "I don't care at all who you were or what you did in the War. I only care about this to fill a gap in my collection."

I can tell you with most certainly that, if someone did that to me 60 years from now, when I am proudly wearing the medals that I have earned on my chest, my last moments of life on earth would be summoning all of what was left of my 90 year old strength and wrapping my cold fingers around that person's throat....and squeezing.

Like I said in my last post, I know I am in the minority when it comes to the reasons for collecting Soviet awards, and that the majority of collectors are those people who simply want that next variation..... And now you know why I am rather sensitive about the topic.

Dave