Help with research on Manfred von Richthofen's Awards & Date

[GMU]

Hello,

I have built this table listing MvR?s awards and the date of the award using as reference Neal W O'Connor's books on aviation awards and K Bodenschatz book ?Jagd in Flanders Himmel?.

I am missing the date of some of the awards. Did MvR receive the other Hanseatic awards the same date as his L?beck award? Does anyone have more info on the dates of his Ottoman awards? He begun as an observer, but did he ever received or qualified for the observers badge?

Can anyone in this Forum help me fill the missing dates? I will appreciate it very much

Thanks,

George

[Daniel Cole]

Here's what they look like. More or less.

[ATIK]

Here's what they look like. More or less.

Hi Daniel,

Indeed you had a beautiful display. You were missing some awards though. I have almost completed mine. I have the Imtiaz medal in silver and the ribbon bar, although my medals are not mounted.

I will never get the the Duke Carl Eduard banderole clasp wit the 11 / 11 / 16 date however...

Here is Real Thing as displayed in 1925.....

Here is former Neal W O'Connors as it is displayed now in Berlin (note Bavarian Military Merit Order 3rd. Class with crown and incorrect swords clasp for the Ovale Duke Carl Eduard)

Here is San Diegos Air&Space Museum (pretty innacurate and a lot of missing awards. PLM is Rothe) At some time this was burned during a Museum's fire and the badge was sent to Rothe for repairs.

Edited August 30, 2006 by ATIK

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Richthofen's never received the Bavarian Military Merit Order 3rd class with crown and X, he's received only the 4th class with X. See in the O'Connor's books volume 6.

Christophe

[GMU]

Hi,

Richthofen's never received the Bavarian Military Merit Order 3rd class with crown and X, he's received only the 4th class with X. See in the O'Connor's books volume 6.

Christophe

Indeed, on April 29 1917 (look at table in post #1) At the moment Neal W O'Connor arranged his diplay, he thought MvR recived the 3 class with crown and swords. However, he rectified this error in volume 6 but his medals were sent to Berlin with the 3rd class.

But, how do you explain the crown displayed on his original bar?

Edited August 31, 2006 by GMU

[Deruelle]

This bar has been seen on his last honnor in 1925. May be the familly rebuilt the medal bar ? I don't have the clue.

Christophe

[GMU]

This bar has been seen on his last honnor in 1925. May be the familly rebuilt the medal bar ? I don't have the clue.

Christophe

Perhaps, this is a mystery. But if the bar was rearranged, why was the red eagle order not included as it should have?

[Deruelle]

The medal arrive too late to be include in the medal bar. He died on April 21, 1918. he received one telegram inform him he received the RAO 3rd class with Crown and X 15 days ago.

Christophe

[saschaw]

I just realized he did not get any award from Baden, what a shame...

[GMU]

The medal arrive too late to be include in the medal bar. He died on April 21, 1918. he received one telegram inform him he received the RAO 3rd class with Crown and X 15 days ago.

Christophe

Hi Christophe,

Yes, he was awarded the RAO on April 6th, 1918, and he was KIA on April 21st, so I understand why the RAO was not mounted on his bar. However this is not the point I wanted to raise.

I do not understand why his bar was, as you say, rebuilt or rearranged. Why would this happen? I can think about two possibilities: a) The bar was badly damaged between 1918 and 1925 and the family needed to replace some piece or pieces that were lost or broken, or b) to include other important awards that were not included in wartime (like the RAO for example).

Clearly the bar as shown on 1925 is identical to the bar he is shown wearing on several pictures of him taken during his last visit home by the end of 1917 (look the front cover of ?Mother of Eagles? by S Hayes Fischer and Neal O?Connor volume 6) One can clearly see that the bar is identical to the one displayed after the war, but one cannot determine from the photos if the MVO was with crown or not. So, clearly the bar was not rearranged in 1925 to add any new decoration like the RAO, which discards reason b.

Do you really believe that the bar was mishandled or broken between 1918 and 1925? Do you believe that only the MVO 4th Class was lost, stolen or broken requiring a replacement? And if this was so, do you think that the family would have gathered (purchased) the higher order 4th with crown (which supposedly he did not earn) instead of the more common, cheaper and correct 4th class? This does not make sense to me.

Look at how carefully his family preserved all of his mementos, his mother even erected a museum. I do not believe his bar was rearranged to replace the MVO 4th for the MVO 4th with Crown. It just does not make sense.

I take the simple explanation. I think the medal bar displayed in 1925 is his original bar as it was during wartime, and that he indeed earned the MVO 4th with Crown, but there is no written record of it (which does not disprove him being awarded that decoration).

George

[ATIK]

I took this photo of MvR medals displayed in San Diego Air & Space Museum ten years ago!

The EK 1 was there but not in the most recent photo. What happened?

Missing:

Bravery Order 4th Class 1st degree ? Bulgaria

Military Merit Order ?W?rttemberg

Sword & Date Clasp to the Oval Duke Carl Edward Medal

Incorrect:

What is the War Merit Cross from Lippe doing on this order bar?

Edited August 31, 2006 by ATIK

[ATIK]

This was sold at Hermann Historica and it shows the correct Sword & Date Clasp to the Oval Duke Carl Edward Medal. Richthofen?s had the date 11 / 11 and the year 1917

[ATIK]

Here is a comparison of the several MvR ribbon bars that I know of.

[GMU]

This was sold at Hermann Historica and it shows the correct Sword & Date Clasp to the Oval Duke Carl Edward Medal. Richthofen?s had the date 11 / 11 and the year 1917

The correct date on the clasp should be 11 /11/ 1916

Edited September 1, 2006 by GMU

[Deruelle]

Hi,

usually, the Carl Eduard medal 2nd class with X haven't got the crown on the ribbon. You can find the swords with claps or swords only (see pictures).

Before questions coming, you can see that CM2X with claps has the ribbon mounted on the wrong side. I don't know why.

Regards

Christophe

[Deruelle]

I'm not a specialist like Rick V about Saxon St Heinrich knight cross, but there is no crown on the ribbon for the correct St Heinrich ribbon. It's difficult to say why the ribbon bar displays in 1925 are embelish like this.

Christophe

Ps : you can see correct St Heinrich ribbon on the following ribbon bar. All comments are welcome.

[Solomon]

This document may help you, too...the original can be found in the archive of Detmold

I showed it in this thread:

War Honor Cross for Heroic Deeds with the original case, Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat Lippe-Detmold

Greetings

Solomon

[MrSmith]

Shouldn't von Richthofen also have received a wound badge for his near fatal head wound he suffered in July 1917

I understand the wound badge was not introduced until 1918, however wasn't the award also backdated for wounded soldiers?

[GMU]

This document may help you, too...the original can be found in the archive of Detmold

I showed it in this thread:

War Honor Cross for Heroic Deeds with the original case, Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat Lippe-Detmold

Greetings

Solomon

Solomon,

A wonderful document! Thanks

I have seen this document before. It is pictured in Neal W O'Connor's book on aviation awards, Vol 7, page 270, but it is a small black and white picture. Now, thanks to you I have a better picture of it.

Indeed, the document confirms that by that date, October 23, 1917, MvR had only received the MVO 4th. with swords from Bavaria.

I have identified all the indicated awards except for #14 and #19. You have a better copy, and perhaps you (or anyone else at this forum) can help me identify these two awards.?? Thanks!

[Solomon]

I made a better scan from the list of his awards...I copied the numbers from you.

I didn?t know, that this document was published in a book before, I made a copy from the original (originally signed by v. Richthofen ) when I vistited the archive in Detmold.

No. 14 you won?t be able to identify...because I heard almost nobody knows this "award":

Manfred v. Richthofen wrote:

Bronzeb?ste mit gravierter Widmung: Dem ruhmvollen Rittm Frh. v. Richthofen sein dankbarer K?nig 18.9.1917

(free translation = bronze bust / statue with engraved dedication: For the famous Rittmeister Freiherr von Richthofen from his grateful king)

No.19 is the Austrian medal for bravery ( He wrote: ?esterr. Tapferkeits-Medaille)

I hope I could help you

Greetings Solomon

[Deruelle]

Hi,

I have found more dates :

Ehrenbecher, 17 september 1916,

Bremen Hanseatenkreuz, 21 september 1917

Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz, 22 september 1917

L?beck Hanseatenkreuz, 22 september 1917

Bulgarian Tapferkeit 4 1, 11 june 1917

Imtiaz medal, 4 november 1917

Liakat medal, 4 november 1917

Regards

Christophe

[GMU]

Manfred v. Richthofen wrote:

Bronzeb?ste mit gravierter Widmung: Dem ruhmvollen Rittm Frh. v. Richthofen sein dankbarer K?nig 18.9.1917

(free translation = bronze bust / statue with engraved dedication: For the famous Rittmeister Freiherr von Richthofen from his grateful king)

No.19 is the Austrian medal for bravery ( He wrote: ?esterr. Tapferkeits-Medaille)

I hope I could help you

Greetings Solomon

Hi Solomon,

Thank you for the better scan, and for deciphering the text on #14 and #19.

Award #14 is a bronze and marble bust of Kaiser Wilhelm II given to MvR on the occasion of his 25th birthday. This bust was personally given by the Kaiser to MvR on May 2, 1917. Richthofen wrote about this occasion describing it as a small present from the Kaiser. Below is a photo of the bust as displayed in MvR?s home.

Now, I have a question. If this is the bust the Kaiser gave Richthofen on May 2, 1917, why does the bust have the described inscription with date September 18 1917 ?

Dem ruhmvollen Rittm Frh. v. Richthofen sein dankbarer K?nig 18.9.1917

The other award (#19) is MVO 3 with war decoration KUK

It is interesting to see that Richthofen had to aknowledge receipt of Lippe?s Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat by signing the document on October 23 1917. It is also very interesting that the document shows the other awards up to that date.

Did MvR fill that out with his own hand? Is that his handwriting?

Thanks again Solomon for sharing this document with us.

George

[GMU]

Hi,

I have found more dates :

Ehrenbecher, 17 september 1916,

Bremen Hanseatenkreuz, 21 september 1917

Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz, 22 september 1917

L?beck Hanseatenkreuz, 22 september 1917

Bulgarian Tapferkeit 4 1, 11 june 1917

Imtiaz medal, 4 november 1917

Liakat medal, 4 november 1917

Regards

Christophe

Hi Christophe,

Thanks for this information. May I kindly ask what is the source of this? MvR's first confirmed victory was indeed on September 17, 1916, but I do think the ehrenbecher was awarded that very same date.

Thanks,

George

[Solomon]

Hi Solomon,

[...]

It is interesting to see that Richthofen had to aknowledge receipt of Lippe?s Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat by signing the document on October 23 1917. It is also very interesting that the document shows the other awards up to that date.

Did MvR fill that out with his own hand? Is that his handwriting?

Everybody who got the Lippe?s Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat (honor cross for heroic deeds)

had to sign such a reciept.

I had also the original signed reciepts from Wilhelm II., von Bismarck, von Ludendorff etc in my hands.

I don?t know for sure if MvR filled out the list of his awards...I haven?t any other paper to compare his handwriting.

But his signature is his original one!

It was quite a strange feeling to hold this original paper in my hands with the knowledge that he held exactly the same paper in his hands a long time ago...

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

I am currently working on transcribing the Sachsen-Coburg Rolls for 1914-18 military awards:

I believe my late friend Neal said that Baron Richthofen's Carl Eduard Medal was actually INCORRECTLY inscribed with the date " 13 11" on the 1916 bar.

In any event although he was sent it pronto, the "official" date for the his Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha Carl Eduard Medaille 2. Klasse mit Schwertern was

30 DECEMBER 1916, number 67 on the roll, which shows him as "Leutnant Ulanen Regiment 1 zur Zeit Jagdstaffel II 1. Armee."

That silly buzzing around in the air stuff was just a temporary distraction from serious cavalry career matters!

His Saxe Ernestine House Order-Knight 1st Class with Xs was indeed issued by Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, number 342 on what I can only call "Roll 1" (there were at least FIVE separate rolls), 9 May 1917 as...

"Rittmeister im Ul. Regt. 1"

Oh, yes? Did he FLY, also?