EK 1870 1870 Iron Cross, 1st Class

[Bill Garvy]

I wish to solicit the collective wisdom of our membership. My thoughts are that this cross is of Third Reich period manufacture given the pin, hinge, and clasp configuration. I would enjoy hearing from others. . .

obverse:

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[Bill Garvy]

reverse:

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[Bill Garvy]

hinge:

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[Bill Garvy]

crown:

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[Chris Boonzaier]

Before reading your comment I thought 3rd Reich as well....

[Steve campbell]

Why would such a cross be made that late. Was there any recipients still left around who would have ordered one? Is this piece still considered gunuine?

[DavidM]

Hello

I would have to agree that this is a Third Reich produced piece.The best explanation I can think of is it was made either for display purposes or as a museum piece.

In the copy of a pre WW2 Assman catalogue that I have, the only EKs shown are 1914 ones - of course that is only one catalogue from one manufacturer and others may have been producing 1870 crosses, although the market can't have been very large, if at all.

Just as an interesting aside, I see that a screwback 1914 EK1 in real silver, (EK1 original mit schraube und platte echt silber), would have set you back 7.20Rm. Shame we can't get them for that price now.

[Bill Garvy]

As aforementioned, I thought Third Reich as well. I suppose any living survivor of the Franco-Prussian War awarded the Iron Cross 1st Class alive in the late 1930's, early 1940's would have been well into their eighties. Regardless, I think the $64,000 question would be if this cross was manufactured pre-1945. I think it is obviously not an 1870 issue piece. Thank you, gentlemen, for your always erudite comments thus far. . .

[Gordon Williamson]

I tend to agree on it being 3rd Reich period, or at least post WW1. Strange though it may seem, the full range of 1870 pieces to include the Grand Cross were made during the 3rd Reich period, but I'd suggest more as museum display pieces than as replacements for veterans. They were also made using the standard Third Reich style frames.

[Steve campbell]

So what is the attitude of collectors to such a piece? Still genuine although not as desirable I would guess. Third Reich era 1914 crosses have been considered genuine, although many of thier recipients would have been around to order them as replacements. Where is the line drawn, as any post 1945 crosses are not deemed as genuine even if they were made by wartime firms. What would something like this be worth. I for one would like to have one as a variant in my collection.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Early 1957 pieces had the same hinge and frames...

And you could probably have ordered whatever core you wanted.

[ekhunter]

So what is the attitude of collectors to such a piece? Still genuine although not as desirable I would guess. Third Reich era 1914 crosses have been considered genuine, although many of thier recipients would have been around to order them as replacements. Where is the line drawn, as any post 1945 crosses are not deemed as genuine even if they were made by wartime firms. What would something like this be worth. I for one would like to have one as a variant in my collection.

You make an excellent point here. "Where is the line drawn"? I guess the answer is up to each individual collector. I just bought a Deumer 1914 1st class made during the Third Reich and didn't think twice about purchasing it, or the fact that it was made 10 to 20 years after the war ended, however, I would never knowingly buy a Third Reich 1st class made during the 50's or 60's. Kind of a strange way of thinking, if you really think about it! Now you really got my brain fried too early in the morning. Thanks a lot! Seriously, I guess it's just an individual thing!

[Steve campbell]

That was my point exactly. It's as if after 45 it was all over. I don't have a problem with that. I too have at 2 1914 EK1's that are most likely from the 30's and I love them. I believe the firm of S & L from Austria made EK's after 45,with the same dies, same construction, swazticas etc. Correct me if I'm wrong. There's speculation other firms did too. S& L were a genuine firm during the war (maker mark #4). These crosses are not well regarded or considered genuine by most from what I understand. I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere and that is after 1945. I guess it makes sense as the world changed drastically after that. If I could get my hands on a 1870 EK made anytime before 45 I would. After 45 just doesn't seem right.

[ekhunter]

That was my point exactly. It's as if after 45 it was all over. I don't have a problem with that. I too have at 2 1914 EK1's that are most likely from the 30's and I love them. I believe the firm of S & L from Austria made EK's after 45,with the same dies, same construction, swazticas etc. Correct me if I'm wrong. There's speculation other firms did too. S& L were a genuine firm during the war (maker mark #4). These crosses are not well regarded or considered genuine by most from what I understand. I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere and that is after 1945. I guess it makes sense as the world changed drastically after that. If I could get my hands on a 1870 EK made anytime before 45 I would. After 45 just doesn't seem right.

We're on the same page there.

[Motorhead]

Simply a piece of junk,nothing more

[hagahr]

can I have a good close up off that stamp please ....?

I have some old jeweller books where a lot off marks are shown ...

wood like to have a chance to compare

Edited January 10, 2012 by hagahr

[hagahr]

to bad ,,,cant do nothing with that ...

regards kay

[hagahr]

fact is ,,1933 , 25000 veteran off the 1866 /64 1870/71 war where alive and well

also fact,,,, auctions with 1813 /1870 ,and 1870 grand crosses where going on 1929

fact 3 ,,film and theatre had obviously a need fore medals ,,as Maybauer advertised 1941 .

I all published that on my site but somehow its still not commonly known ....( maybe it needs more time )

Iron cross - Home

Edited January 10, 2012 by hagahr

[saschaw]

Fact 4, this is a bullshit recent fake with idiotic bogus PKZ mark "6" to indicate it were made by Fritz Zimmermann, Stuttgart.

[hagahr]

you seen them before ?

( just fore the record ,,I do not think in any way that these crosses shown here are original )

just reacting on the questions about who wood want ( and made) copy's in the 1920 /30 /40;s

sorry if I put anyone on the wrong foot

Edited January 10, 2012 by hagahr

[hagahr]

and fore the stamp

the 800/1000 silver marks are not the only ones used in the old day's ...

that is wy asking fore better pictures ,,,just out off curiosity ..you never know .

[saschaw]

I cannot remeber exactely if I saw a fake like this before or just similar ones. I'm focusing on real ones.

Interresting purity marks! What country or area are they from?!

[hagahr]

these are Germany, Poland ,Bömen und Mären

but they are still under investigation about how to place them

and most importantly on to what to place them

Edited January 11, 2012 by hagahr

[saschaw]

Germany? Never seen them on any silver items. Mhh, odd...

[Eric Stahlhut]

back to the cross in question: two of these (images #15,16) have been sold on both ebay.de and american ebay in the last month...the odds of it being authentic (regardless of when they were purportedly made) are very slim indeed.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Eric Stahlhut