Soviet Red Banner #7 & #8 - yes or no?

[Christian Zulus]

Photograph of a RB #8

Gentlemen,

GMIC-member "lentiay" (Maxim) from Russia shows a photograph from a book of an RB #8 in presentation box at that thread:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=136258

You can read under the photographed RB #8 in that book, that all RBs #8 are unnumbered - without s/n. -, due to the fact, that they had been never claimed.

So there are unnumbered RBs #8 at stock somewhere ? As far, as I know, Soviet Orders had been numbered just after production ?

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 7, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Lapa]

Guys,

A couple of nice pics that may shed a bit of light on the topic at hand: group of General Burcev (currently held at the Central Armed Forces Museum)

Marc

[Lapa]

And the reverse...

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Marc,

many thanks for the scans .

RB#7 seems to be authentic to me ...

I can hardly dedect the s/n. of RB#7 - could you tell it to us.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I still believe, that there had been RBs beyound #6 .

[new world]

And the reverse...

I have a question about suspension, as it looks odd to me.

It seems it's combined ot two parts: 3-place aluminum and 4 place brass.

Why do we have the following:

- what was the need to put two of them together instead of using brand new 7-place suspension?

- how are they held together - I don't see any joins?

- you can see that aluminum suspension has brass one placed on top of it, but the needle is still there, essentially making it not functional. Why wasn't the needle removed? it serves no purpose and the construction would have been more solid without the needle.

- why earlier awards (1 through 3) are placed on newer aluminum suspension, while more recent awards (4 through 7) are on older brass hanger?

- how exactly was this suspension worn - with pin needle going only through half of the suspension?

William

Edited February 9, 2008 by new world

[Ferdinand]

Marc, did you mean Lieutenant-General of Aviation I.I. Borzov? In their book about the Order of the Red Banner Durov and Strekalov list the S/N's of the Red Banners 1 to 6 of Borzov:

Nr. 10731

# 2 nr. 494

# 3 nr. 577

# 4 nr. 74

# 5 nr. 86

# 6 nr. 15

So, if your 'Burcev' is 'Borzov', the group above might not be real, as it has no RB # 4. Also, Durov doesn't list a # 7 in Borzov's list, as they did with Pstygo for example (# 7 S/N 2).

Edited February 9, 2008 by Ferdinand

[Christophe]

Marc,

Interesting set. Please, could you post the SN of each RB ?

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christophe]

I have a question about suspension, as it looks odd to me.

It seems it's combined ot two parts: 3-place aluminum and 4 place brass.

Why do we have the following:

- what was the need to put two of them together instead of using brand new 7-place suspension?

- how are they held together - I don't see any joins?

- you can see that aluminum suspension has brass one placed on top of it, but the needle is still there, essentially making it not functional. Why wasn't the needle removed? it serves no purpose and the construction would have been more solid without the needle.

- why earlier awards (1 through 3) are placed on newer aluminum suspension, while more recent awards (4 through 7) are on older brass hanger?

- how exactly was this suspension worn - with pin needle going only through half of the suspension?

William

William,

These are good points...

Cheers.

Ch.

[Lapa]

I have a question about suspension, as it looks odd to me.

It seems it's combined ot two parts: 3-place aluminum and 4 place brass.

Why do we have the following:

- what was the need to put two of them together instead of using brand new 7-place suspension?

- how are they held together - I don't see any joins?

- you can see that aluminum suspension has brass one placed on top of it, but the needle is still there, essentially making it not functional. Why wasn't the needle removed? it serves no purpose and the construction would have been more solid without the needle.

- why earlier awards (1 through 3) are placed on newer aluminum suspension, while more recent awards (4 through 7) are on older brass hanger?

- how exactly was this suspension worn - with pin needle going only through half of the suspension?

William

William,

I, unfortunately, cannot answer your questions. This medal bar is held at the Central Museum in Moscow. It is not on display, but I was lucky enough to be shown a few things held in storage, this one among other things.

On the matter of why join 2 suspensions instead of buying a longer one, it was not unusual for a veteran to fix his smaller suspensions together, probably a matter of savings (the USSR was a heaven for innovative re-use of almost everything). I have handled quite a few of these; they are either riveted, or soldered, or glued. I once even had one which was held by metallic thread!

Marc

[Lapa]

Marc, did you mean Lieutenant-General of Aviation I.I. Borzov? In their book about the Order of the Red Banner Durov and Strekalov list the S/N's of the Red Banners 1 to 6 of Borzov:

Nr. 10731

# 2 nr. 494

# 3 nr. 577

# 4 nr. 74

# 5 nr. 86

# 6 nr. 15

So, if your 'Burcev' is 'Borzov', the group above might not be real, as it has no RB # 4. Also, Durov doesn't list a # 7 in Borzov's list, as they did with Pstygo for example (# 7 S/N 2).

Auke,

No, it is not Borzov, it is 'Бурцев'. I have to see if I wrote the numbers somewhere; unfortunately I did not have all the time I wanted to admire, to take pictures, and to write all the specifics down.

Marc

[Christian Zulus]

No, it is not Borzov, it is 'Бурцев'. I have to see if I wrote the numbers somewhere; unfortunately I did not have all the time I wanted to admire, to take pictures, and to write all the specifics down.

Dear Marc,

which Бурцев is this ? It's not the HSU http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=4990 , because he got only 2 RBs.

So, a genuine RB#7 is at the museum .

What about the RB#8 ?

At least Eugene Rabkin is wrong with his statement, that RBs beyond RB#6 don't exist ....

Best regards

Christian