Soviet Order of Glory 3rd class

[Alfred]

Interesting to this 3rd class Order of Glory is the text of the seller:

"Possibly an unissued example, but this might also be an award for Afghanistan or a

"catch-up" award to a WW2 veteran."

Has anybody a researched Order of Glory for Afganistan ?

regards

Andreas

[Christophe]

Hi Andreas,

Have you tried to contact Ed (Haynes) ? I'm not sure he has one, but surely can be of help...

Cheers.

Ch.

[JimZ]

"Possibly" and "might"

Not words i'd like to see in a description of a medal I was trying to buy unless I knew better than the seller. Words that give room for doubt make me spend my money elsewhere. "Possibly" an attempt to add to the value of this award. "Might" not be plausible..... Not passing any judgement on this high serial numbered glory 3...only on the grey shadow casts by the last 2 lines of the description.

Of course only research would ever answer this....but $115 for a Glory 3rd......high serial number or not....Afghanistan or not..... we're on the road to perdition.

Jim

Edited November 4, 2006 by jimzammit

[NavyFCO]

It's a very nice late Glory 3rd, and in fact it's the latest one I've ever seen. HOWEVER, I can 99.99% guarantee you that it is not for Afghanistan. It's almost positively a catch-up award for someone from WW2. (I will admit that I am tempted, VERY tempted to buy it as it's the latest s/n that I've ever seen that might have been awarded!)

With regard to sellers in general (particularly on eBay) and awards "for Afghanistan." This is a personal hot-button of mine (be prepared for a rant...)

LOTS of sellers claim their awards are "for Afghanistan." There's a seller on eBay right now who has a Red Star that he claims was awarded for Afghanistan. Unfortunately for him, one look at the thread with serial numbers on this forum would show him that his Red Star was actually awarded IN 1953!!!! Only about 20-something years BEFORE Afghanistan!

My hobby is researching "modern" (e.g. 1960s-1990s) Soviet awards and I have only found ONE seller who thought he might have an award that was given for Afghanistan, whose award was not only within the numerical range for being an Afghanistan award, but after research actually WAS for Afghanistan. Out of 50+ Red Stars, about a dozen Red Banners, and about 20 Homeland 3rds that I've researched that were "possibly" Afghanistan-era awards, I've found a whopping four awards out of all of them.

All that to say: Buy the medal, not the story (unless it has research from the Archives.)

Dave

Edited November 4, 2006 by NavyFCO

[Ed_Haynes]

Agreed totally. While I have references to some awards of the Glory in Afghanistan, the only way to know is to do research. The best way to go wrong is to believe the dealers and get hormonally caught up in their conjuring of myths.

[NavyFCO]

Of course only research would ever answer this....but $115 for a Glory 3rd......high serial number or not....Afghanistan or not..... we're on the road to perdition.

Jim:

Actually, the price isn't that bad, especially considering the unusual-ness of the piece. I've paid some insane prices for late Red Stars that boggled my mind, but when one considers the number of living recipients with awards that were given in the late 80s and early 90s that still have their awards, the high numbered ones are quite rare.

Dave

[Gerd Becker]

Dave,

Glory 3rd class Nr 807732 is for sale on another website, you probably know too. For only 85 Dollar. If you are interested, i?ll send you the link per pm.

Gerd

[Ed_Haynes]

For Afghanistan, I have been able to trace:

Gold Star of the "Hero of the Soviet Union" - 65

Order of the Red Banner - 9 (including one "4" award)

Order of the Red Star - 29

Order of Service to the Motherland - 2nd class - 1 - 3rd class - 8

Order of Personal Courage - 1

Order of Glory - 3rd class (?) - 1

Medal for Bravery - 7

Medal for Combat Service - 4

Medal for Distinguished Military Service - 1st class - 1

These are just the ones for which I have references and names. Obviously, the numbers are WAY too low.

Yopu may want to glance at

http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/medals...han/fourth.html

though after some major information theft and subsequent unreferenced publication, I have quite intentionally NOT been updating the site. Sorry. Thank the pirate.

I have (trusting you "gentlemen"), put up my preliminary lists over at: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12478 (so as not to hijack this thread any more )

Edited November 4, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Christian Zulus]

Glory & Afghanistan ????

Dear Ed,

I have never seen any real evidence for a Glory confered for Afghanistan - it dosen't make any phaleristic sense either .

In my humble opinion the Glory - as the OGPW, Victory, etc. - is always linked with the defending of the Soviet Motherland against the Nazis. They are genuine GPW-Awards! ORB & Red Star + Medals are before GPW and Motherland & Courage + Medals are long after the GPW.

Best regards

Christian

For Afghanistan, I have been able to trace:

Order of Glory - 3rd class (?) - 1

These are just the ones for which I have references and names. Obviously, the numbers are WAY too low.

Yopu may want to glance at

http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/medals...han/fourth.html

though after some major information theft and subsequent unreferneced publication, I have quite intentionally NOT been updating the site. Sorry. Thank the pirate.

[JimZ]

Jim:

Actually, the price isn't that bad, especially considering the unusual-ness of the piece. I've paid some insane prices for late Red Stars that boggled my mind, but when one considers the number of living recipients with awards that were given in the late 80s and early 90s that still have their awards, the high numbered ones are quite rare.

Dave

Hi Dave,

As you very well say - Buy the medal not the story. With research from the archives it still is a high amount to pay for the Glory 3rd but assuming it was Afghanistan it would almost be justified. As a catch up award, I'd not be too hot on it and once again not without research. But at the back of my mind I keep asking - what if this turns out to be a Glory that had not been awarded?

Case in point - Order for Service to the Motherland. We both know what they worth....with and without research! But what about the serial numbered 130XXX and higher now seen in circulation. These have not been awarded and I for one value such an award less than one that has been awarded. So this Glory 3rd remains the highest any of us has ever seen. Yet my honest humble opinion remains that without research to back it up as an awarded glory, it remains overpriced.

Jim

[NavyFCO]

With research from the archives it still is a high amount to pay for the Glory 3rd but assuming it was Afghanistan it would almost be justified.

Acutally, if it was issued for actions in Afghanistan, I would be willing to pay up to 10x his asking price for it.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Acutally, if it was issued for actions in Afghanistan, I would be willing to pay up to 10x his asking price for it.

Dave

As would I.

[Christophe]

(...) as it's the latest s/n that I've ever seen that might have been awarded!) (...)

Dave

Paul Schmitt, in Echoes of War, mentions three Orders of Glory 3rd Class with SN in excess of 800.00. They all are awarded for WW2 actions. The highest SN is 807.879.

Ch.

[NavyFCO]

Paul Schmitt, in Echoes of War, mentions three Orders of Glory 3rd Class with SN in excess of 800.00. They all are awarded for WW2 actions. The highest SN is 807.879.

Ch.

And they say that the highest observed is in the "high 900,000 range" in The Comprehensive Guide. However, I have personally never seen (or owned) any higher than 791431, which was awarded on 3 April 1992, but it was a delayed award from 1944.

Dave

[NavyFCO]

Ironically, the "big news" at the moment is a professor who is being criticized over his belief in Bigfoot.

I thought a second to myself, and considered that post-GPW awards of the Order of Glory are much like Bigfoot. There is only one person that I know of who has claimed to have seen one (a Glory awarded for actions post-GPW) but like those few who have actually "seen" Bigfoot, there is thus far no proof that they actually exist.

I'd love to see a real Bigfoot, just like I'd love to see a Glory awarded for actions after the GPW.

However, I've got a feeling I might see Bigfoot first....

Dave

Edited November 4, 2006 by NavyFCO

[Ed_Haynes]

Maybe, Dave, maybe.

But, back on topic, have you glanced at the thread I put up on Soviet awards in Afghanistan? What do you know about the recipient who is listed in published contemporary sources as having received an Order of Glory in Afghanistan. Yes, they might have been wrong. Anyone can be wrong.

[Gerd Becker]

Dave, how much proof do you need? Look at this rare photo:

[order_of_victory]

The thing that suprises me is that you would be willing to pay a lot of money for Afgan Award, but not for a Rare Labour award

Or I am just biased towards labour awards

Order of Victory

[Ed_Haynes]

The thing that suprises me is that you would be willing to pay a lot of money for Afgan Award, but not for a Rare Labour award

Or I am just biased towards labour awards

Order of Victory

I'd pay lots for both OoV, but you know how I feel about labor awards -- they are NASSSSSTY -- no one wants anything to do with them (lemme have 'em all! ).

[NavyFCO]

The thing that suprises me is that you would be willing to pay a lot of money for Afgan Award, but not for a Rare Labour award

Yep, you're absolutely right. I wouldn't buy a Labor Glory group because I've already had one. It was nice, but, unresearchable and thus... just another medal (set of medals) that was really expensive.

Now, if I could find an Order of Glory for Afghanistan actions, that would be THE ONLY ONE people have seen or is known.

So what's more rare? The only one known of a certain award or an award that is buyable if you look for one long enough???

Dave

[JimZ]

Hey guys!!

Don't diss the labour awards. They also meant something to the people receiving them!! Also have some respects for the collectors that like these less 'valourous' orders too!!!

IF the Glory 3 was issued for Afghansitsan you'd want to pay 10x the amount.....Well and good - Dave and Ed have set the market for an elusive Afghanistan Glory 3 at over $1,100.

What I am saying is that as an unresearched award at $115 I personally think (IMHO) that its overpriced. If you wanna speculate on such a medal then you got equal (?) chance that it could be:

a) a catch up award (where it would be worth more than its market value)

b) an afghanistan award (where you'd be on to a winner based on your valuations)

c) an unissued award (where I'd say you'd have thrown your money away.....my opinion only!)

I say "equal (?)" as we seem to be unsure of Glories awarded for Afghanistan...then its more likely this is yet another catch up award. While on this thread any straight yes or no answers as to whether Glories were awarded for Afghanistan?? Records must exist if yes........

Jim

[NavyFCO]

Don't diss the labour awards. They also meant something to the people receiving them!! Also have some respects for the collectors that like these less 'valourous' orders too!!!

Jim:

Don't get me wrong, I actually like labor awards. I've owned six complete HSL groups, a few single HSL stars, a Labor Glory 1st group, and many, many, many documented Lenins (with huge paper groups to indicate that they were labor awards) RBLs (& screwbacks), FONs, BoHs (& screwbacks), etc. Hundreds of them if combined.

Unfortunately, while they are good looking and were given out for probably impressive deeds, it's difficult for me to really appreciate them as much as I should because most of them are simply impossible to research and find out EXACTLY what the person did to earn the award. I have gone to great lengths to find out more about the recipients. In fact, one HSL group I had (with three Lenins and an Oct Rev) I even tried to get information from his local libraries and archives in the former republic that he lived in, all to no avail though.

Since I like to know exactly what awards were given for, that has pulled me more over to military awards, because nearly all of them are researchable.

Don't think that I have something against labor awards. Not hardly! It's just that I would personally RATHER own a group where I knew what the awards were given for rather than one that leaves much of it up to guesswork. Perhaps if we were discussing this five-six years ago when everything was affordable, it might be different and I'd have just as many labor groups as I do military ones (as I did at one time) but now with the cost of things as they are, I'm forced to focus on one area, and that's in the military realm. I still do have my "favorite" labor groups in my collection though...

Just my thoughts....

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

I will agree that researching military awards is much easier than civil awards, and if that were (as I think it is in Dave's case) the sole reason for a pro-military awards bias, I could (and do) understand it completely. Some limited, sporadic, research is possible on (some) labor awards, but it is largely newspaper-based at present, and follows much more a "who is/was this person" approach. This is much more difficult research task than pulling service records and decoration recommendations (not to belittle that as a research task, though!). Maybe, someday, records will be available for labor research with the same ease and the same depth that military awards now enjoy. Maybe, maybe not.

I still throw out the question: Which was or greater relevance to the success of the Soviet Union, being the random first man to cross some river in central Poland or working for decades to increase food production to feed the people? Maybe one makes a sexier, more cinematic story, one that resonates for those who are themselves military veterans and never worked on a farm, but which was more important? And, moreover, which tells us more about the values and nature of Soviet State and society?

[order_of_victory]

Dave,

In that case I must appologise, If I had known you had owned one (I should o guessed ) I would not have said that

Order of Victory

[JimZ]

No worries Dave,

Not getting anyone wrong.... my comment was meant as nothing but a gentle reminder as to the fact that the less "valourous" labour awards should not be thought of as second rate awards. I confess that I too would prefer owning a medal awarded for heroic actions. Iprefer the combat Lenin to the long service Lenin....or maybe even to the milkmaid's Lenin! I confess my own bias. And from the research point of view I can fully appreciate the difference in feeling between military and labour awards.

However, lets just bear in mind that the Soviet Union was forged not only by the mighty Red Army and a few years of intense fighting and terrible loss of life, but also by many more years (starting from the revolution to the collapse of the USSR) of hard and sometimes self sacrificing labour in the name of (now failed) communist ideals. We sometimes tend to forget or put aside these multitudes when discussing these awards!

Jim