Fake General Comments and discussion about fakes

[JapanX]

http://www.paulfrasercollectibles.com/News/MEDALS-%26-MILITARIA/Soviet-Order-of-Kutuzov-collection-of-medals-is-sold-for-$128,700-at-auction/9615.page

It would be nice to see close-ups of obverse and reverse ...

[JapanX]

Gentlemen's what do you think about this?

Nothing good, but let's hear what others are thinking about this piece :whistle:

[Rogi]

The first thing I noticed was the enamel, but I'm not into badges etc, so I don't know how the Red enamel on them compare to the orders and medals.

I also noticed the screwback seems very thin.

Again having never seen one of these in real life, and not being a badge guy, that's all I can say about that Could you give us the name of the badge, so I can at least google image search it hehehehe

[SergioV]

compared with another badge the enamel look different but the serial number is perfect..

somebody said that probably the metal ribbon was changed..

[JapanX]

This "somebody" is right

Unknown "engineer" took base (basic oval + sword) from МООП badge (1962-1968) and combined it with hammer and sickle with МВД inscription on the band from different badge

The simplest test - different red enamel on band and centre of the badge.

Another - wrongly attached "whiskers" on reverse (they should be in horizontal position) + obvious signs of old whiskers on reverse.

[JapanX]

Could you give us the name of the badge, so I can at least google image search it hehehehe

"Honored Worker of MVD"

It was introduced in 1946.

In 1940-1946 its name was "Honored Worker of NKVD"

In 1962-1968 its name was "Honored Worker of MOOP"

[Rogi]

Wooo Red enamel observation was ok this time for me hehehe

[SergioV]

thank you very much Nick

it's amazing, you know that for little money some shady characters create orders and badges as if they were assembling Lego and some unsuspecting collectors fall into the trap..

[rocketscientist]

Another bad purchase...

Do you see anything wrong with this Combat Service? It looks doctored to me, the number does not correspond to the variant of the medal.

Do you see any sign of buffing?

[SergioV]

Rocket che piacere vederti, potrebbe essere un duplicato, i primi non avevano la Д

e a mio avviso non ha senso falsificare questa medaglia con il seriale stampato, se avesse avuto il seriale inciso a mano con la famosa N iniziale

e una sospensione rettangolare con nastro rosso forse avresti avuto ragione, ma in questo caso a mio modesto avviso hai solo trovato un duplicato.

ma sentiamo cosa ne pensano gli esperti

---

Rocket it's a pleasure to see you, it might be a duplicate, the first version did not have the Д

and in my opinion it makes no sense to falsify this medal with the serial number printed, if he had the serial hand-engraved with the famous N initial

and a rectangular suspension with red ribbon maybe you'd have been right, but in this case, in my humble opinion you've just found a duplicate.

but let's hear what the experts think

[rocketscientist]

It's also my pleasure to meet you on this forum, Sergio!

You raised a very good point, why should fakers put an effort to engrave a serial number on a medal which ALREADY has one, moreover it is a very common and cheap?

It might be worth to do it, if by doing it you would increase the value of the medal. As you say, engraving a N° would a possible solution, but there are more.

Have a look to these Red Stars. They are original, but...

Again, why to alter the serial number of an order just to make it in the range above the million? The value would not increase more than 10-15$ and would not justify the effort.

But... let's assume that one day at your local flea market you find some papers relevant to a ww2 veteran, like these:

... then you look at the award booklet and suddenly you realise how to boost up the value of your simple, scattered, red stars you always wanted to get rid of....

Now you will understand my doubts, I suppose.

ciao

Edited November 23, 2013 by rocketscientist

[JapanX]

Do you see any sign of buffing?

Unfortunately this is doctored medal...

Sabre has straight handle

This is typical feature of numbered medals from 1 XXX XXX - 2 XXX XXX

Edited November 23, 2013 by JapanX

[JapanX]

+

old number (X XXX XXX) was erased ... but not completely

+

Wrong punching (2, 3 and 7 are the most obvious)

[rocketscientist]

That was my problem, Nick... same with the ORSs, I assume.

Thank you.

[Rogi]

Wow, that is sad, why even bother faking these less "bling bling" awards and orders :S

are the documents valid? (like the photo and other stuff) the book is obviously added on to if the medals and orders are off.

[rocketscientist]

The document is given to a Captain who can be found in podvignaroda files, where the awarding of one CS and 2 ORS are recorded. The third ORS might be recorded under a mistyped entry.

In the second citation for awarding a Red star, the previous awards are mentioned, and I have the impression that, in addition to the CS, there are 2 ORS already in the list (handwritten in black ink in the scan).

[rocketscientist]

Wow, that is sad, why even bother faking these less "bling bling" awards and orders :S

are the documents valid? (like the photo and other stuff) the book is obviously added on to if the medals and orders are off.

No Idea whether the documents are valid, but some look credible (like the Ordenskaya Knizhka, for example). I have got pictures of the awardee, but I cannot be sure that match with the actual recipient of the decorations. Feel free to comment the posted pictures.

Here is the Award Booklet

Here the potential awardee

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-29214200-1385312922.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-52426600-1385312946.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-57002500-1385312933.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-35640400-1385312955.jpg

Here other documents I am not able to understand.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-74119100-1385313096.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-24387100-1385313114.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-19219100-1385313135.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-11610900-1385313243.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-07925100-1385313262.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-5691-0-59415900-1385313280.jpg

[Rogi]

By the looks of the stamp it looks like he is Ukranian

Have you tried ordering research or asking about him ? Ferdinand on our forum would be a good choice (Auke would definitely be a first step in this)

It kills me when I see doctored orders and medals, I mean you ruin one order or medal to make a totally different one. So in essence the forger is killing 2 or more groups by editing these numbers....

Edited November 24, 2013 by Rogi

[rocketscientist]

I collect some documents in podvignaroda, it will make me busy for a while if I will try to translate it. In any case, the group is definitely a put together that now has not much interest in my opinion.

It will only remind me my stupidity when I will look at it.

[Rogi]

It is also good to have fake groups etc, the documents might be legitimate. They certainly look so to me (again I am no expert) Just because the medals are made up doesn't mean everything is

Keep it anyway, it is a good tool for future use. You can compare areas etc and thickness on the medals. So you can avoid this type of thing in the future :)

[rocketscientist]

I agree! There is always something to learn from mistakes. Anyhow it seems that I personally do nor learn enough from mine. Considering all the fakes I have accumulated so far (I did not post them all, still) in years of collecting, I should be a professor!

[JapanX]

Ukrainian Labour Red Banner that so successfully is selling for many years by western auction houses ...

[JapanX]

Details

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Interesting Ushakov