Soviet Legal or illegal?

[Ferdinand]

I have been told that it's currently illegal to sell or buy Soviet awards in Russia or the Ukraine. It seems that this law was instituted in the 90's because veterans were being robbed of their medals. Is this true? If so, did anyone of you have any trouble with this law?

[Riley1965]

Judging by the size of my collection and the collections of my friends and mentors...I have to say "No".

Doc

[NavyFCO]

It has always been illegal to sell Soviet ODM from Russia and the Ukraine. They have enforced this law with varying degrees of enthusiasm over the past 15 years. I have seen people arrested at the street market in Moscow in the early 1990s for having Soviet awards, and to this day sellers there are still hesitant to openly display awards. However, there are a few collector clubs who apparently operate quite openly, so I do not know how the law is applied to some, but not all.

Dave

Edited December 7, 2006 by NavyFCO

[alanirvine]

I have purchased ODM's in both the Ukraine and in Russia with no problems. However, getting them out of the counrty is another thing.

Alanirvine

[Ferdinand]

Judging by the size of my collection and the collections of my friends and mentors...I have to say "No".

That's exactly the reason why I posted this question. Many of us have got huge collections, but somehow these awards must have been shipped out of Russia / the Soviet Union. And Dave tells this has always been illegal, so I'm surprised you're answering 'no'.

In a Dutch WWII Forum I'm currently having a discussion with a collector who only buys his awards from friends and collectors he really trusts. He doesn't want to buy illegal stuff. Also, he always erases his serial numbers when he posts his awards on the internet. I'm finding it difficult to form my own opinion.

[NavyFCO]

In a Dutch WWII Forum I'm currently having a discussion with a collector who only buys his awards from friends and collectors he really trusts. He doesn't want to buy illegal stuff. Also, he always erases his serial numbers when he posts his awards on the internet. I'm finding it difficult to form my own opinion.

I actually had this discussion with my wife years ago. I told her that ALL of my Soviet awards were illegally purchased (save for one to an American) because it's against the law in Russia (etc.) to sell/export the awards. She was shocked, but then when I told her that the sale of my medals had paid for part of her car, she was more than willing to let this indescretion "slip." So, if the other collector doesn't want to buy things that weren't somehow illegally gotten, then he should avoid collecting Soviet awards, or buy only those from countries of the FSU where it is legal to buy/sell/export the awards.

As far as erasing the serial numbers on the internet, he's being overly cautious. If he's trying to protect the veteran, in all chances they're dead so there's nothing anyone could do to them even if they tried. If someone in law enforcement in Russia really wanted to crack down on veterans who sold their awards, they'll have a great time doing it as I'd estimate that at any point in time there are probably 2000 (probably more) awards they can look at on the internet between this forum, the SAF, the WAF, eBay, my website and any number of Soviet award dealer websites. So, one guy blanking out the numbers on a Dutch forum isn't really doing anything to help anyone, save for making it difficult for others to evaluate the serial numbers on his awards.

Just my two cents.

Dave

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

O.K., according to the current laws of Russia, Ukraine, etc. the possession of Soviet Awards outside of the country is illegal, except you are a veteran, who took his awards with him to Israel or Germany or any other country.

To have high-end orders in the collection, which are either robbed or purchased from the veteran or the heirs of the veteran for an "apple and an egg" (i.e.: Glory 1cl for USD 300,-, etc., etc.) is also not very ethic . And the fact is, that all collectors, who started purchasing their "crown juwels" in the early 1990s (like me ), got the great awards for only a few dollars - maximum in the 4-digit-range.

So, all the profits we made with trading Soviet Awards the last 13 years are not absolutly "clean" profits, because the veteran or the heirs of the veteran never got anything close to the market value for their orders, medals and documents.

O.K., that is a fact. But on the other side the awards of the Soviet veterans found a very good home in our collections or small museums. The are going to be researched and the memory of the veteran is kept alive - his heroic deeds, his career, etc. The most important fact is, that our collectors community is bringing back the truth about WW II via research: Historic reality vs. Nazi-sight (or OSS, State Department, CIA-sight) of the Eastern Front. The fact is, that the Red Army of the peoples of the Soviet Union smashed Nazi-Germany - not Mr. Roosevelt and not Mr. Churchill. So the existence - in collections and in the www - of researched Soviet Awards in the Western World is important for the truth.

I myself had a lot of guests from the former Soviet Union in my residence - officers up to a Lt.-General (Motherland 3 cl & 2cl + 3 RS for being the top military adviser in Ethiopia), who had been at that time Military Commander of Kiev. They were all very, very pleased to see my well kept modest collection of Soviet Awards. They all said, that it is great and very helpful, when Soviet Awards are kept and shown outside of the former Soviet Union.

So, if I look at Dave's website, then I have to congratulate him: He has done more propaganda for the former Soviet Union, than a whole team of APN .

In my view the "museum"- or "propaganda"-aspect balances out the ethic (and legal) shortcomings of our collections (or business).

Coming back to the strictly legal viewpoint of our collections: If Russia might play the same game like the Jewish community with the restitution their robbed oil paintings or other treasuries from the Nazi-time, then it might become difficult for us. But only in theory, because there are much more Soviet Orders & Medals outside the former Soviet Union, than great paintings of Gustav Klimt, Egon Schiele, Edvard Munch, Peter Paul Rubens, etc., which had been robbed by the Nazis and sold to collectors. So, to proof each case - all the RS, Glories, etc. - would cost enormous sums of money for the Russian State.

I think, that the "Sotheby's-case" was singular, because the Russian authorities caught the thief of these high-end awards before the auction took place. That had been legally a simple case: Somebody had stolen some items of collectibles and tried to sell them via Sotheby's.

We all can sleep well, but we have a big ethic duty: To keep up the memory, do research and present it in the www .

Best regards

Christian

[Bryan]

Gentlemen,

O.K., according to the current laws of Russia, Ukraine, etc. the possession of Soviet Awards outside of the country is illegal, except you are a veteran, who took his awards with him to Israel or Germany or any other country.

Christian, may I ask you why you mention Germany and Israel? Is there a special law about those countries in regards to Soviet awards?

[Christian Zulus]

Christian, may I ask you why you mention Germany and Israel? Is there a special law about those countries in regards to Soviet awards?

No, there are no special laws about those countries regarding Soviet Awards, but a large number of GPW-Veterans, who had the (Soviet) nationality "Jewish" or (smaller number!) "German" left Russia for those countries in the 1990s.

Jewish and also German people played an important role in the history of Russia and of the Soviet Union. According to the size of the people, the Jewish community in the Soviet Union had by far the largest number of HSUs: More than 150 received the "Hero-Title". More than 500.000 had been fighting in the lines of the Red Army. More than 200.000 KIAs. Besides the Shoa, the Jews had given the biggest sacrifice in the fight against Nazi-Germany - and had been the greatest heros also.

So, there are now some very high decorated Soviet Veterans in Israel.

That was the reason, why I mentioned those countries.

Best regards

Christian

[Bryan]

Danke f?r deine Erkl?rung Christian.

[NavyFCO]

Jewish and also German people played an important role in the history of Russia and of the Soviet Union.

This is a bit but Christian mentioned the people of Jewish descent that lived in Russia and the USSR. Starting in the late 1600s, a considerable number of ethnic Germans also came to Russia and the Ukraine, with particular emphasis on the Ukraine with large contingents of German farmers there. I don't know how many immigrated back to Germany (particularly E. Germany) after the War, but I imagine there probably had to have been quite a few just as there were large immigrations from this population during the late 1800s and early 1900s to the United States. Just an added historical perspective that shows a little bit why Stalin was worried about people supporting the Germans, particularly in the Ukraine during WW2 - because many of the people there were ethnically German. Quite a fascinating (and rather obscure) bit of history.

Dave

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dave,

many thanks for your interesting remarks to the topic, which might be a little bit

I don't know how many immigrated back to Germany (particularly E. Germany) after the War,

After the reunification of West- and East-Germany (FRG & GDR) in 1989/90 all the ethnic Germans from the former Soviet Union had the right to move to Germany (as most of the Jews had the right - beginning from the 1970s - to move to Israel). So, I think, that in the 1990s a not so small group of GPW-Veterans might have gone - with their orders & medals - to Germany. Most of them settled in the former GDR.

Coming back to the German influence through the centuries in Russian History: Also Catherine the Great was ethnic German .

We have to accept, that the Soviet Union - as former Yugoslavia or former Austro-Hungarian Empire - had been a multi-ethnic state. Even comrade Stalin was Georgian by nationality, who spoke Russian with an very heavy accent. The Red Army was not a "Russian Army", but Russian soldiers represented the largest nationality within the Red Army.

It is a pity, that all 3 large multi-ethnic states - SU, YU & Austria - broke apart . BTW: All 3 states had very, very fine orders & medals . Maybe only multi-ethnic states can manufacture great awards . Maybe state-awards have a very special role in multi-ethnic states?

Best regards

Christian

[Riley1965]

That's exactly the reason why I posted this question. Many of us have got huge collections, but somehow these awards must have been shipped out of Russia / the Soviet Union. And Dave tells this has always been illegal, so I'm surprised you're answering 'no'.

In a Dutch WWII Forum I'm currently having a discussion with a collector who only buys his awards from friends and collectors he really trusts. He doesn't want to buy illegal stuff. Also, he always erases his serial numbers when he posts his awards on the internet. I'm finding it difficult to form my own opinion.

I meant that it is illegal but because of the size of my collection, which is "small" compared to others here, it didn't seem to be illegal. So based on that I said no.

Doc

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

...To have high-end orders in the collection, which are either robbed or purchased from the veteran or the heirs of the veteran for an "apple and an egg" (i.e.: Glory 1cl for USD 300,-, etc., etc.) is also not very ethic . And the fact is, that all collectors, who started purchasing their "crown juwels" in the early 1990s (like me ), got the great awards for only a few dollars - maximum in the 4-digit-range...

Best regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

Much has been said and covered here; but I would like to focus on the above clip.

In the early 90?s times in the former Soviet Union were economically very hard for many, especially the elderly. For many (and this group included, many if not most, of the surviving GPW veterans), among the other difficulties, their pensions were dubious at best. While we all want to believe that they were adequately and fairly compensated for their decorations, in reality we will never know.

Some of us, myself included, have at times disposed of parts of our collections to cover other needs in life. Sure, I would really like to have gotten fifteen years ago what I could get today for some Imperial German pieces I sold back then. Don?t forget, back then Red Stars, OPW?s and Red Banners were displayed at shows in shoe boxes. Given the choice, I would love to see Soviet pieces back at those prices; foregoing the unrealized profits represented by my collection.

The point being that we all have our reasons for selling parts of our collections and other, for lack of a better word, ?assets?. Degree of need generally determines the price we set, and crying foul years later is not an acceptable excuse.

Just my $.02,

Wild Card

Edited December 10, 2006 by Wild Card

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

to sum up the discussions from a legal viewpoint:

1. It is 100 % legal to have our collections in the EU, USA and more than hundred other states of the world.

2. It is illegal - from some aspects only (!) - according to Russina Law.

The fact is, that Russian Law doesn't apply to America or Europe

Another point: If the legal owner (veteran or heir) of the awards sold them in 1990s to dealers/collectors in the West, then the business had been even from the Russian viewpoint o.k. and correct.

Another question: Had Russia been a state with a legislation and law enforcement up to civilized standards in the time between the Soviet Union and Czar Putin? Definitly: NO . Before Putin (and after the fall of Socialism) Russia was highly corrupted state ruled by Mafia-gangs & Oligarchs and certain civil officers & politicians.

So, for cases, that happended before Putin and after the CCCP there is no solid legal framework at all, I think.

My 2 Cents to the legal discussion.

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

There are, I suggest, both legal and ethical/moral issues here. And, as usual, they only overlap up to a point.

Unless we are dealing with stolen goods or goods illegally smuggled out of the USSR/Russia (or unless we happen to be Russian citizens or reside there), I'd suggest the narrowly "legal" issues are limited. Or are they? There are international laws on stolen/smuggled goods and on plundered cultural patrimony (though the Elgin Marbles and the Koh-i-Noor seem to be stuck where they are and are bigger fish that this Red Star here).

The moral/ethical aspects are far broader, and (ought to be) far more troubling to us. But, then, these days, so few care about ethics or morals so long as you "get yours"? Sad.

On a related issue, maybe this is something many of us would just rather not think about, not talk about, and maybe the queasy feelings will go away. Or not.

If we really thought about it, most of us would (I hope) probably have to stop collecting, despite all our high-sounding blather about how we "preserve the history". That is why most of us try not to think about things we try not to think about.

[Christian Zulus]

Great words, Ed

Best regards

Christian

There are, I suggest, both legal and ethical/moral issues here. And, as usual, they only overlap up to a point.

Unless we are dealing with stolen goods or goods illegally smuggled out of the USSR/Russia (or unless we happen to be Russian citizens or reside there), I'd suggest the narrowly "legal" issues are limited. Or are they? There are international laws on stolen/smuggled goods and on plundered cultural patrimony (though the Elgin Marbles and the Koh-i-Noor seem to be stuck where they are and are bigger fish that this Red Star here).

The moral/ethical aspects are far broader, and (ought to be) far more troubling to us. But, then, these days, so few care about ethics or morals so long as you "get yours"? Sad.

On a related issue, maybe this is something many of us would just rather not think about, not talk about, and maybe the queasy feelings will go away. Or not.

If we really thought about it, most of us would (I hope) probably have to stop collecting, despite all our high-sounding blather about how we "preserve the history". That is why most of us try not to think about things we try not to think about.

[Bob]

Valid points Ed. In a discussion most people naturally "dislike"

Don't want to get into a "I'm less immoral than rest" kind of discussion, but at least people on forum such as this try to share their collections and contribute to collective learning on the phaleristic area. Still is better in my eyes than some first class super expense order "disappearing" and never beingg heard of again.

[JimZ]

OOOOH I missed this thread. Just came back from travelling to find that GMIC has a facelift I don't quite yet like.....

I was totally unaware that there were any regulations whatsoever about the sale of Soviet ODMs out of Ukraine. In fact, I was also under the very strong impression that it was Ukraine that was largely supplying the market (with of course some Western speculators divesting their investment!). Maybe a misapprehension on my side?

As far as Russia is concerned, I do not think one can argue legal vs ethical. I'd like to see anyone argue with Ivan at Customs as to how taking a Red Star or a 1985 OGPW out of the country is somehow ethical when it is blatantly illegal by virtue of some law or other I could not quothe. Of course the situation of a tete a tete between Ivan and anyone close to me has yet to happen But I'd really like to know the outcome of such a discussion. Of course one may try to slip Ivan the odd buck... although I somehow would not advise it unless one wants to risk an even longer stay in Russia Of course offering a bribe would set all ethical arguments up in smoke!

But on a more serious note, the fact of the matter is that irrespective of what measures, ODMs still find their way out of Russia and the Ukraine. The export is illegal - period. Possibly some times the ODMs were obtained through unethical means. Where does that leave us? How they were obtained will remain a big question mark to most, and whether a particular piece was stolen or sold will more often then not, never be answered. Hope that helps us all sleep better tonight!

Jim