Sachsen-Meiningen Unpublished Award Rolls 1914-1918

[Guest Rick Research]

Getting close to the end, less than 500 to get through the last 33 pages.

Now, here are a couple of good examples of why I have to keep my own set of "books" so that I can post images of specific entries in future. Just because when the book version finally gets printed, everything will be neatly alphabetized with the data and dates there...

look at the dates HERE, on this page:

In the midst of 13 May 1918 are strays from 15 January and 28 February! But it is often worse!--

October 1916 awards on a May 1918 page!

Also, those pages 111 and 112 are the SECOND volume of these awards, with the same page numbering. So on my own list the above are "111-B" and "112-B" to be able to FIND specific entries again.

Rollin' rollin' rollin' tain't just as easy as flipping to the page that says 6 November 1917 and voila. Nope. I wish.

BTW, looks like my own ribbon bar identification to the SMK/double Waldecks/HHOX recipient isn't going to work out. That's the problem with RIBBON bars, when the same ribbon can be different awards. Back to the drawing board on that one for me! .

[joemiller]

I am hoping that the SEHO rolls from Saxe-Meiningen will help us to determine just how difficult the gold and silver merit medals with the sword bar were. This one one of my favorites

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, they're on there too, but unfortunately all Meiningen's Ernestine rolls end by December 1916. So we'll only be able to infer based on comparisons with Altenburg and Coburg.

USUALLY awards "devalued" and were handed out as often in 1918 as in almost the entire preceding period. That was NOT the case with the Meiningen War Honor Crosses

the rolls for which I have just finished today

yippee yippee yippee

where most of the bestowals were a tidal wave in 1915-16.

Ended up with

NONCOMBATANT ribbon "SMK" awards

=664

- 11 replaced later by combatant ribbons

653

BUT at least 25 on the "combatant" roll are so obviously unnoted noncombatants (to opera singers and the like), final figure

678 (ish) (1 up from a medal)

COMBATANT ribbon "SMK" awards

=3,946 (got to tweak this by weeding out double entries and do on)

-10 I am positive should have been entered as noncombatant ribbons (above)

3,936 (7 up from medals)

There is ONE page of the roll missing, with 14 awards on it the type for which cannot be determined. (Inserted note: Daniel GOT the page-- 14 noncombatants, 1 of which was replaced by a combatant later!!!))

Oddities:

1 award to a woman of the noncombatant,

1 award to a "Brazilian" (German named businessman in Rio de Janeiro),

3 awards below statutory rank levels of the combatants (2 OffizierStellvertreters and a naval Maschinist),

24 Feldwebelleutnants got a noncombatant ribbon SMK,

178 got a combatant ribbon SMK,

there were (astonished me, I'll tell you!)

138 forms of "Dr." title (medical, law, philosophy etc etc) recipients of the noncombatant, and

377 "Dr." title recipients of the combatant ribbon type.

It'll take a couple of weeks to fill in the missing names, add dates, and note subsequent career data (2 SS Obergruppenf?hrers in there)

THEN on to the 1914-16 Meiningen Ernestine rolls, which are logged in 2 sets of rolls which will have to be combined, and checked with the cheapo "joint" awards listed with Altenburg and Coburg.

Should be done with Meiningen by the end of February.

[Guest Rick Research]

There are TWO separate rolls of different lists of awards kept. Today I finished combining both for Meiningen's Ernestine Grand Crosses X down to Commanders X and this is the result--

Grand Crosses X = 38 from 1914-16. Certainly no more were given to Royal Personages, since plenty of unused space remained in the segregated section for their Exalted Persons. I would say chances are this is an almost complete listing.

Commanders 1st X = 12, ending in the fall of 1915. Yes, 1915. Since there was room for another year and there WEREN'T any, I suspect these also... petered out, perhaps in favor of the cheaper SMKs.

Commanders 2nd X = 66 from 1914-16. I may turn up marginal entries on a couple more in promotions up from the Knights First, because oddly enough, there are NOTES from after 1916 in the pre-1917 pages. There are some returns noted for those killed in action later, and one natural death in June 1920 with the Order dutifully noted as returned, for instance.

4 Commanders 2nd "With Year Date" are noted as "joint" awards, but Meiningen got off cheap with those and I think we can dismiss that sort of thing as "me too." They didn't supply the Orders or award ANY "Year Dates" on their own.

Sometimes there are VERY odd entries, such as a Commander from Saxe-Coburg but the entry "swords from Meiningen" as if they actually handed out PARTS on some joint awards. Maybe they did! Several are also noted as being decorated but no Order insignia was to be sent-- I suspect on cross checking with Altenburg and Coburg these will be awards from them earlier-- so TWO sets of paperwork for one actual award.

The pages are screwy because when the blank tomes were purchased in 1911 obviously they "guesstimated" future usage for starting points of the grades, and when the war filled up pages more rapidly. it leads to oddities like 1916 awards being in front of 1912 ones, all in a continuous run-on use of every available line.

[Guest Rick Research]

Meiningen's PARTIAL Ernestine rolls

HSH3aX= 118, 1914-16

HSH3bX = 167, 1914-15

Verdienstkreuz X = 49 (January to May 1915)

Disappointing, but that's what there are. On the other hand, since Altenburg and Coburg are as close to "complete" as possible, any found on Reichswehr lists etc which are NOT people on the other two lists can be assumed to be this third Duchy's. Lots of "backfill" work needed on these, combining entries with the SMK etc etc.

Next on to the Gold and Silver Medals X,which are randomly scattered together in the same Medals Roll.

[Guest Rick Research]

FINISHED Sachsen-Meiningen today.

The rolls unfortunately STOP for these in June 1915, so how many (and even IF any) more were awarded cannot be know at this point. It is possible that a missing volume of Meiningen's Ernestine rolls, which DID exist

may still be there, misplaced or stuck in the wrong box.

Gold Medals X = 81

Silver Medals X = 264.

These numbers must be taken as PARTIAL pending actually searching the Archives for the Lost Roll.

With completion of these rolls, all three Saxon Ernestine Duchies awards for WW1 have now been transcribed.

We will, at some point, be RE-ISSUING Erhard Roth's existing volume on Sachsen-Altenburg in the same format Daniel and I are using with the current batch, including additional information, adding names and making corrections to the exact transcription done by the late Herr Roth. There are also notes in the Altenburg Rolls, which I have, concerning deaths and returns which will make that Second Edition worthwhile even for you lucky few who have his 1st edition. But that is a secondary priority to doing Rolls that have NOT been done.

Next Stop--

LIPPE DETMOLD.

[Ed_Haynes]

Good on ya' Rick! Keep on truckin'!

[joemiller]

FINISHED Sachsen-Meiningen today.

The rolls unfortunately STOP for these in June 1915, so how many (and even IF any) more were awarded cannot be know at this point. It is possible that a missing volume of Meiningen's Ernestine rolls, which DID exist

may still be there, misplaced or stuck in the wrong box.

Gold Medals X = 81

Silver Medals X = 264.

These numbers must be taken as PARTIAL pending actually searching the Archives for the Lost Roll.

With completion of these rolls, all three Saxon Ernestine Duchies awards for WW1 have now been transcribed.

We will, at some point, be RE-ISSUING Erhard Roth's existing volume on Sachsen-Altenburg in the same format Daniel and I are using with the current batch, including additional information, adding names and making corrections to the exact transcription done by the late Herr Roth. There are also notes in the Altenburg Rolls, which I have, concerning deaths and returns which will make that Second Edition worthwhile even for you lucky few who have his 1st edition. But that is a secondary priority to doing Rolls that have NOT been done.

Next Stop--

LIPPE DETMOLD.

Rick, thanks again for all of your hard work. Since the swords awards by these duchies, according to Hessenthal and Schreiber, only were reauthorized for World War I in March of 1915, that really underlines your statement that these numbers have to be taken as partial. As you had posted previously in answer to one of my questions, the majority of these silver and gold sword awards for the merit medals of these three duchies appear to have been given out by Saxe Coburg Gotha. Altenburg appears to have given out way less than 100 gold medals with swords and less than 300 silver medals with swords. Meiningen based at least on the numbers you have found is probably on a par with Altenburg. Coburg Gotha seems to have awarded silver X's in the thousands and gold X's in the hundreds.

[Ulsterman]

Rick:

Well done! I also appreciate and respect your hard work and historical integrity! You deserve a medal!

Well, I am working on that-

[Guest Rick Research]

Joe: Yup. I did Coburg down to the Gold Medals, but there are simply too many silvers to do-- and not worth the time and effort for group identification.

The bulk of all the Meiningen Ernestine medals as found were actually made in clumps by units in

January and May 1915.

[joemiller]

Rick, based on your experience with the Saxe-Meiningen War Merit Cross rolls, do you think it will be possible to determine the breakout between the numbers of chocolate bronze and the zinc crosses. I guess there is no firm date for the changeover to zinc but is it reasonable to think it would be sometime in 1918? The zinc crosses seem to appear less often on Ebay or other auctions.

[Guest Rick Research]

So far the only two "zinky" SMKs I have been able to identify in attributable medal bars have both been from June 1918, so I can't guess about any earlier awards... yet.

[webr55]

Now with the new rolls available, is it already possible to ID this one (not mine!):

[Guest Rick Research]

Sure. There was only one.

PM'd you since y'all know how I won't add value to fill unknown sellers' pockets and jack up prices on a sale that hasn't ended.

What is the date engraved above the 1915 bar? What is the SMK made out of-- it looks bronze but should be zink.

[Ulsterman]

any chance to id this chap-note rank...?

Edited September 7, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

What unit on the boards, again? As I recall, problem here is that he was a SAXON career NCO (XV Cross M1913, SA4X) who's gotten himself promoted up...

and there is no match to that UNIT number in the SMKs... meaning he got it as and in something else.

When Daniel (in his spare time) gets to re-doing Roth's SAXON rolls, I'm sure given the way the Master Of All Lists is proceeding that comparing SV4Xs with SMK by COMPUTER-sort will be easier than trying to juggle hundreds by eye.

In '08?

[Deruelle]

I remember this bar has been sold several years ago by Hermann Historica. I haven't save this picture in my computer. May be someone has got the date on the claps.

Christophe

[JensF.]

Any chance to ID him? I was told he was a doctor with the name Kaufmann from Breslau, but that may be wrong. But I think the combination with the bulgarian one is not too common.

[Guest Rick Research]

No Dr. Kaufmann, so that name is wrong, or he was not a MEDICAL doctor and that was an officer who later was a Dr.phil. or Dr.jur. etc.

There were only 6 Prussians named Kaufmann who got an SMK--

-1 other awards known

-1 too old

-1 a chaplain

-1 a 1915 bronze type recipient

That leaves two, but one of those got his in 1917 when these, as far as I can tell, were still the lovely chocolate bronze type.

This one is a zinky, so IF the last name is correct, the only remaining "suspect" COULD be

WERNER Kaufmann, Lt dR Feldart Rgt 261, who got his SMK on 10.6.18 (known "zinky" types handed out then). He is described as a Student aus Schmiedehausen.

If somebody can find an academic doctorate for this WERNER Kaufmann, and any known attachment to Breslau, that might help. But an attribution without any documentation, for a combination that cannot be traced for any OTHER awards is just a gamble.

[JensF.]

Thanks Rick!!! Can you post the name of the 1917 recipient too? Maybe also his unit? I will try to find out if any of these units were fighting at the eastern front, that might help with the bulgarian cross. But as officer he should have gotten the order, not the silver cross from Bulgaria, or?

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, that grade would have gone to a F?hnrich/Senior NCO. Maybe lower ranking if he was blond and Tsar Ferdinand thought he was cute.

The only other of that name REMOTELY possible was

FRANZ Kaufmann, who got his on 1.4.17 as Lt dR while in the II. Ersatz Bn of Inf Rgt 130. That suggests he was on light duty recovering from wounds, probably. He was a Referendar from M?nster.

Both survived the war.

[JensF.]

Many thanks Rick!!!

[webr55]

The problem is that these Dr. jur. do not always show up in library catalogs, as they were not always required to have their theses published. Nothing on Werner Kaufmann.

HOWEVER, I can offer a Dr. jur. Franz Herbert Kaufmann, of Jewish origin, born 1886, Referendar before 1914, murdered in KZ Sachsenhausen 1944. Quite a long story:

http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/k/kaufmann_f_h.shtml

No Breslau connection visible, however.

[JensF.]

I was told, he was a medical doctor, so I don't think that was him.

[Guest Rick Research]

Then the only possibilities are:

the young 1918 zinky "suspect" who had been a student before the army, or

the undocumented name is wrong.