Need help ID'ing some medals

[ErikMuller]

Gentlemen,

I need some help ID'ing some decorations from an unfortunately poor photograph.

This photograph was taken at the farewell party of the Netherlands Red Cross ambulance from Gleiwitz on 7 March, 1918. The captain on the right wears collar tabs of the Johanniter Order. He is shown more in detail below:

His medals are shown in detail here:

So far I've ID'ed the following medals:

Neck:

1. Knight of Honor, Order of Saint John, Baley of Brandenburg (also steckkreuz)

2. unidentified

Spange:

1. Cross of Merit of the Netherlands Red Cross

2. Medal of the German Red Cross 2nd class

3. unidentified

4. Medal of the German Red Cross 3rd class

Could anyone shed any light on the two unidentified awards? My best guess are that they are German.

Erik M?ller

[Guest Rick Research]

#3-- quite incredibly -- is the 1911+ ?lberg Kreuz for assistance to the German hospital (still there) on the Mount of Olives in the Holy Land!

WOW!

[ErikMuller]

#3-- quite incredibly -- is the 1911+ ?lberg Kreuz for assistance to the German hospital (still there) on the Mount of Olives in the Holy Land!

WOW!

Rick, Thanks!

You don't happen to have an image of that cross?

I was hoping to identify the recipient by his medals.

The only person on the ambulance who was a member of a nobel family was W.H. Baron Taets van Amerongen van Woudenberg, treasurer of the ambulance. He was no doctor, so he can't be wearing the uniform of a captain.

[Tom Y]

From CarstenZeige's catalog

[ErikMuller]

From CarstenZeige's catalog

Lovely, never saw this award before!

[ErikMuller]

#3-- quite incredibly -- is the 1911+ ?lberg Kreuz for assistance to the German hospital (still there) on the Mount of Olives in the Holy Land!

WOW!

Knowing the name I found the following on www.militaria-fundforum.de:

"Gestiftet anl?sslich der Einweihungsfeier des Geb?udes der Auguste Victoria-Stiftung auf dem ?lberg bei Jerusalem im Jahre 1910. Insgesamt 181 Verleihungen (am 8. April 81 mal in Jerusalem, am 9. April, dem Tag der Einweihung 77 mal und am 10. April 7 mal, au?erdem in Deutschland weitere 16 mal.

Das waren sowohl Zivilisten als auch Milit?rs. Auf dem Markt befinden sich zahlreiche F?lschungen, also Obacht!

Ich besitzen leider nur eine Miniatur ...

Im OMM 91 befindet sich ein sehr guter Artikel zur Geschichte des Kreuzes"

Does anyone has this OMM91? And/Or, if not in this source, the list of the 181 recipients?

[saschaw]

Does anyone has this OMM91? And/Or, if not in this source, the list of the 181 recipients?

Oh, that seems to be MY text I wrote to MY miniature, hmm ...

Attached some pictures of my miniatur, the list of 181 people will follow ...

[saschaw]

I love the detail ...

[saschaw]

In Jerusalem erhielten am 8. April 1910 folgende Personen das ?lbergkreuz:

die bayerischen Prinzen Georg und Conrad und ihre Adjutanten Oberleutnant Baron Nagel zu Aichberg und Leutnant Graf la Ros?e, der Botschafter Freiherr Marschall von Bieberstein, Leutnant Thoma und Dragoman (=Dolmetscher) Anders; das Gefolge des Prinzen Eitel Friedrich: Oberhofmeisterin Gr?fin von Schlieffen, Hofdame von Veltheim, Kammerherr von Heynitz, die pers?nlichen Adjutanten Major Graf von Blumenthal und Hauptmann Freiherr von M?ffling, Oberstleutnant von Leipzig, Major von Tschirschky-B?gendorff, Major Freiherr von Plotho, Hofmarschall von Lettow-Vorbeck, Oberstabsarzt Dr. Wiemuth und Fregatten-Kapit?n Karpf; die Mitglieder des Kuratoriums der ?lberg-Stiftung und des ?lberg-Vereins: Oberhofmeister Freiherr von Mirbach und seine Gemahlin, Frau Laura Oelbermann, Generalleutnant z.D. Freiherr von Gayl, Generalleutnant z.D. von Ammon und Gemahlin, der Pr?sident des ev. Oberkirchenrats D. Voigts und Gemahlin, Oberkonsistorialrat Lahusen, Kammerherr von Hardt, Kommerzienrat Stangen, Frau General von Alten geb. Freiin von Diepenbroick-Gr?ter, Kammerherr Freiherr von Kleist, Kammerherr von Carnap und Gemahlin, Kammerherr von Krosigk, Gerichts-Assessor Dr. Werner Freiherr von Mirbach, Leutnant Otto Freiherr von Mirbach, Legationssekret?r Kienlin und Gemahlin, Pastor Stursberg und Hofrat Posth; die Johanniterritter: Landeshauptmann von Dziembowski, Landeshauptmann und Ordenssekret?r von Berg, Erbk?mmerer Graf von der Schulenburg-He?ler, Landrat Graf von der Schulenburg-Angern, Kammerherr von Kalkreuth, der kgl. bayerische K?mmerer Freiherr von Hohenfels, Oberst z.D. von Winterfeld, Rittmeister a.D. von Borke, Rittmeister a.D. von der Hagen, Rittergutsbesitzer von Kaphengst, Rittergutsbesitzer von Schwerin, Rittmeister a.D. Vogel von Falkenstein, Regierungsrat von Harnier, Professor von Goerne, Landrat a.D. von Westernhagen, Dr. Jonkheer van Daehne, Herr van Varick, Graf von Rechtern-Limpurg, Baron Taets von Amerongen, der kais. russische General Baron von Maydell; Regierungs-Baumeister a.D. Leibnitz (der leitende Architekt des Komplexes in Jerusalem), Baurat Hoffmann, Architekt Appel, Maurermeister Westphal, Bildhauer Guth, Generalkonsul Schmidt und Gemahlin, Konsul R??ler, Vizekonsul Dr. Loytved-Hardegg, Dr. Grussendorf, Postdirektor Rottner, Professor Moritz, Propst Dr. Jeremias, die leitende Schwester Theodore Barkhausen, der K?ster Michel, der Pr?sident des syrischen Waisenhauses Schneller, Geheimer Justizrat Prof. D. Dr. Kahl, Oberkonsistorialrat Kahl, Orgelbauer Granzin, Glockengie?er Schilling, Malermeister Schmidt.

In der Heimat erhielten am 9. April, dem Tag der Einweihung, folgende Personen das ?lbergkreuz: die Mitglieder des ?lberg-Vereins:

Geh. Kommerzienrat Arnhold, Generalkonsul von Bary, Vizekonsul M. von Bary, Rittergutsbesitzer A. Baum, Bankier B?ddinghaus, Geh. Regierungsrat von Boettinger, Landrat von Br?ning, Schlosshauptmann Graf von Carmer, Fabrikbesitzer Franz Ca?ler, Fabrikbesitzer Cu?ler, Bankier von Deichmann, Geh. Kommerzienrat Delius, Oberhofprediger D. Dryander, Justizrat Elze, Fabrikbesitzer Arthur Franke, Polizeipr?sident von Hammacher und Gemahlin, Gro?kaufmann Rudolph Hertzog, Rittergutsbesitzer von Hiller, Kommerzienrat Jordan, Geh. Kommerzienrat Kirdorf, Frau Krupp geb. Freiin von Ende, Herr von Krupp und Gemahlin, Fabrikbesitzer Wilhelm Loh, Generalkonsul Franz von Mendelssohn, Generalkonsul Robert von Mendelssohn, Frau von Michael geb. Haniel, Konsul Niessen, Geh. Legationsrat von Oppenheim, Freifrau Maria von Oppenheim geb. Freiin von Perglas, Kommerzienrat Leopold Peill, Fabrikbesitzer Rexroth, Rittergutsbesitzer von Rocander, Kommissionsrat Sachs, Major Schlawe, Rentner Max Sch?ppenthau, Dr. jur. Otto Sch?ppenthau, Oberpr?sident Freiherr von Schorlemer, Kommerzienrat Schrader, Frau Sievers geb. Meyer, Kommerzienrat Stilke, Oberf?rster Strau?, Freifrau von Stumm-Halbach, Major a.D. von Tiedemann-Seeheim, Hofbuchdrucker und Hofbuchh?ndler Dr. Th. Toeche-Mittler, Hoflieferant Ernst Traube, Schlosshauptmann von Veltheim, Gesandter von Waldthausen, Direktor von Winterfeld; au?erdem noch: Hoflieferant Adlon, Kunstschlossermeister Golde, Rechnungsrat Hahn, Fabrikbesitzer Walter Haberland, Fabrikbesitzer Paul Hammer, Superintendent Harhausen, Kommerzienrat Jordan, Maler L?wel, Wirkl. Geheimer Legationsrat von Mohl, Fabrikbesitzer und Hoflieferant M?ller, Fabrikbesitzer Richard M?ller, Fabrikbesitzer Puhl, Fabrikbesitzer W. Rentrop, Professor Riegelmann, Direktor Ries, Fabrikbesitzer Roger von Boch-Galhau, Hoforgelbaumeister Sauer, Professor Schaper, Hofglockengie?ermeister Schilling, Fabrikbesitzer Schwintzer, Geh. Regierungsrat Dr. W. von Siemens, Ingenieur Arnold von Siemens, Frau Staudt, Schatullsekret?r Utpott, Fabrikdirektor Voigt, Fabrikbesitzer Wagner, Bildhauer M. Wolff

This is the complete list as it has been published in OMM 91. My apologize for not translating their titles and jobs, but there are many which are rather strange ...

[ErikMuller]

In Jerusalem erhielten am 8. April 1910 folgende Personen das ?lbergkreuz:

Dr. Jonkheer van Daehne, Herr van Varick, Graf von Rechtern-Limpurg, Baron Taets von Amerongen

This is the complete list as it has been published in OMM 91. My apologize for not translating their titles and jobs, but there are many which are rather strange ...

Looks like four Dutch recipients, amongst which a Baron Taets van Amerongen. Sweet!

Thanks Saschaw!

[Jacky]

Hi Eric,

I would like to help you on the second commander cross.

I think it's the Bavarian Militar verdienst order 2nd class with swertern & Kr?ne.

Kind regards,

Jacky

Edited January 14, 2007 by Jacky

[ErikMuller]

Hi Eric,

I would like to help you on the second commander cross.

It's the Bavarian Militar verdienst order 2nd class with swertern & Kr?ne.

Kind regards,

Jacky

That was my first thought to, but:

- the swords on the BMVO are on top of the upper arm, not between the arm and the crown

- the medalion is to big to be the BMVO

And besides, there are only two Dutch recipients of the BMVO and Baron Taets van Amerongen isn't one of them

[saschaw]

Thanks, I'm glad to help.

The 2nd neck cross looks more like the Hungarian St. Stephan order - are you sure there are swords? Think this order hadn't any swords at all ...

And hey, he isn't wearing ANYTHING with swords, why should the neck badge have?

Edited January 14, 2007 by saschaw

[ErikMuller]

Thanks, I'm glad to help.

The 2nd neck cross looks more like the Hungarian St. Stephan order - are you sure there are swords? Think this order hadn't any swords at all ...

And hey, he isn't wearing ANYTHING with swords, why should the neck badge have?

This cross looks more like the cross in the picture. However, I still think there are swords visible between the upper arm and what appears to be a crown.

The Dutch Nobility Book (Nederland's Adelsbook) of 1918 only gives him as treasurer of the Commendery Netherlands of the Order of Saint John. Unfortunately none of his decorations are mentioned. Neither in his obituary in the Het Vaderland of 25 november 1939.

Edited January 14, 2007 by ErikMuller

[Herr General]

I can agree on the swords between the cross and the crown. Could it be an imperial German decoration ?

[Guest Rick Research]

MANY thanks for the ?lberg list-- where exactly was that published?

The second Commander grade Order looks to me like a Bulgarian St. Alexander. I can't think of anything else likely which had "swords on ring" that way. Unfortunately the scan is too small, dark and blurry to be certain.

[ErikMuller]

MANY thanks for the ?lberg list-- where exactly was that published?

The second Commander grade Order looks to me like a Bulgarian St. Alexander. I can't think of anything else likely which had "swords on ring" that way. Unfortunately the scan is too small, dark and blurry to be certain.

@ Sascha: I'm missing 14 names :-)

@ Rick: I agree, but doesn't the Saint Alexander-order has white enamel? This one looks dark.

[Yankee]

MANY thanks for the ?lberg list-- where exactly was that published?

The second Commander grade Order looks to me like a Bulgarian St. Alexander. I can't think of anything else likely which had "swords on ring" that way. Unfortunately the scan is too small, dark and blurry to be certain.

Third class St. Alexander ( commander grade ) always in green enamel. The higher & lower classes in white enamel. Hope it helps.

[ErikMuller]

Third class St. Alexander ( commander grade ) always in green enamel. The higher & lower classes in white enamel. Hope it helps.

Just checked my very limited source on Bulgarian orders (a badly photocopied booklet by Militaria House Canada). I think you guys are right: it definitely looks like a Commander in the Order of St. Alexander. The things I though were swords, were actually the ribbons (?) from under the crown.

Thanks!

Now just to confirm those awards to H.W. Baron Taets van Amerongen van Woudenberg

[Great Dane]

I agree about the cross being the Bulgarian Order of St, Alexander, but it's clearly swords between the crown and the cross - not tassels.

Swords mounted like this does not mean a military award but were awarded for 'acts of courage in peace-time' ('acts of bravery in war-time' had swords through the center medallion).

/Mike

[saschaw]

MANY thanks for the ?lberg list-- where exactly was that published?

Had it still anywhere on my computer, but I think it also has been in the "Orden-Militaria-Magazin Nr. 91" ...

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks. When I cite that in future I wanted to be able to give credit where credit is due.

[922F]

Thanks. When I cite that in future I wanted to be able to give credit where credit is due.

Edited February 10, 2007 by 922F

[ErikMuller]

Just to let you guys know, I think I've identyfied the three (not four as I thought first) Dutch recipients of this cross:

1. Jhr. Mr. August von Daehne, heer van Varik

Born at The Hague, 26 June, 1846. Died at The Hague at 26 January, 1930.

He became a Knight of Justice of the Order of Sain John, Baley of Brandenburg (Prussia) in 1898 (Dutch Royal Approval by Decree No. 31 of 4 August, 1898), an Officer in the Order of the Oaken Crown of Luxembourg (Dutch Royal Approval by Decree No. 3 of 2 February, 1900) and a Knight 2nd class of the Order of Saint Stanislas of Russia (Dutch Royal Approval by Decree No. 3 of 2 February, 1900).

2. Willem Reinhard Adolph Carel Graaf van Rechteren Limpurg

Born at The Hague on 11 April, 1865. Died at Velp on 7 February, 1929.

He became a Knight of Honor of the Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem in 1909 (Dutch Royal Approval by Decree No. 68 of 6 December, 1909).

3. Willem Hendrik Baron Taets van Amerongen, heer van Woudenberg.

Born at The Hague on 9 November, 1862. Died at Zeist on 23 November, 1939.

He became a Knight of Honor of the Order of Saint John, Baley of Brandenburg (Prussia) in 1908 (Dutch Royal Approval by Decree No. 51 of 13 May, 1908).

The Dutch Chancellary of Orders of Knighthood has nothing in their archives on approvel of accepting the ?lbergkreuz to the above persons. Also, the Bulgarian Order of Saint Alexander, worn by Taets van Amerongen on this picture, had never been approved for wear by a Dutch Royal Decree.