Lippe Detmold Unpublished Award Rolls 1869-1918

[Solomon]

Hi Rick,

Many thanks. Do you thinkd that this roll exist in Lippe's Archive ? I try to write next week.

Regards

Christophe

Hi Christophe,

this roll exist in the archive...I hope I?ll find it at my next visit.

Greetings

Solomon

[Deruelle]

Hi Solomon,

If you can find it, a great thanks per advance and a bottle of cognac for you when you will in holiday in France

Of course, Rick if one day you want to visit France and my house, it's not a bottle but a lot of them I will reserve for you

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Both the 1897 and 1905 "lawsuit" medal rolls would be EXTREMELY useful. If you can copy them, I will transcribe them and add those to the Lippe volume with credit to you.

Think of the fame! Immortality!

[Guest Rick Research]

The mystery of the three LDH3mXaRs bestowed from 1888 to 1898 is resolved-- all three had received an LDH3X for 1870/71. One of these three died and his award was returned and another was returned on advancement to a higher grade, so there is only ONE LDH3mXaR theoretically "out there."

So far from the House Order rolls I've found the following "lawsuit medals" in their Orders Almanac entries: 14 1897 and 9 1905.

Another thing which is

horrifying

with these rolls is the notations on RETURNS.

We are all accustomed to numbers given as "total awarded" BUT BUT BUT

when the numbers sent back to the Orders Chancery (two 1871 mit Xs were noted as returned in the 1920s for instance) there are MANY fewer potentially "available" of the FEW Lippe awards ever bestowed. No wonder medal bars with these are virtually impossible to find!!!!

BUY ANY LIPPE HOUSE ORDERS YOU FIND-- WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Have found by crosschecking the Lippe-Detmold rolls with the 1908/09 Orders Almanac's entries that there are quite a few INCORRECT entries in the latter for the Schaumburg-Lippe Honor Cross, when I check THAT roll.

More Detmold wierdness:

Nine recipients of the LDH3 got it--that's right, the same class--TWICE. Nobody else did, so it was NOT a simple exchange of outdated Orders insignia. The duplicate awards are cross-indexed in the roll as to the same people twice, verified but not explained!

1) Landwirtschaftsschule Direktor Ferdinand Burgdorf got his FIRST LDH3 on18 April 1882, and his SECOND one on 24 November 1900.

2) Konsistorialrat Rudolf Engel got his first LDH3 on 18 April 1886 and his 2nd one apparently on retiring 23 Marcg 1898.

3) Postdirektor Ernst got both his LDH3s in the same job, 1 September 1871 and again 31 March 1888.

4) Amtsgerichtsrat F?hrer merely changed his residence, getting two a mere 4 years apart: 18 April 1887 and 22 October 1891

5) Amtsrat von Meien also simply changed where he was working for his two, 18 April 1877 AND 29 May 1888

6) Amtsrat Neubourg was in the same job when he got his duplicate LDH3s: 18 April 1879 and 10 May 1892

7) Regierungsrat Eduard Pustkuchen only had to wait 5 years for his double: 18 April 1887 and 5 June 1894

8) Wessel Rothe moved up in his tax jobs, going 18 years between duplication: 18 April 1887 and 13 November 1905

9) Gymnasial Oberlehrer Heinrich Thorbecke's two were dragged out 26 years apart: 20 September 1875 and 9 June 1901

and yup, there are similar Inexplicables in the higher classes I haven't gotten to yet.

All of which additionally deducts from the number awarded due to subtractions of returns.

[webr55]

Great work! BTW, have you found Dr. Arthur Schleh somewhere?

Chris

[Solomon]

Hello Rick,

I?ll try to explain that (I hope I?m right):

Each person you listed changed his "old" LDH3 (with the Chiffre "LA" -A stands for Adolph from Schaumburg-Lippe)

into the new design of the LDH3 (with the Chiffre L -L stand for Leopold from Lippe-Detmold), because after the conflict

between Detmold and Schaumburg nobody liked to show any longer the insignia of the "enemy".

Difficult to explain....

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

Dr. Arthur Schleh, ?konomierat in M?nster, born Berlin 6 October 1846, received LDH4a #151 on 29 June 1899. From the Orders Almanac, he also had a Red Eagle 4, Prussian LD2, the 1870/71 War Medal, and 1897 Centenary Medal.

Yes but ONLY nine of them and none of the others? And they did not exchange their Orders-- there is no notation for the first ones being returned, only notation to see those later entries. And their dates go from 1888 to 1905, with gaps of between 4 and 26 years in between!

Printing out the rolls for all types of Honor Cross between Officer and Knight 2nd runs to 61 full pages. It looks like Lippe-Detmold, in its entirety, will easily be double that length, plus.

[Guest Rick Research]

Uh oh! Solomon-- those numbers I mentioned to you about returns? Well, they have to be INCREASED. many "Bemerkungen" remarks show "o.D." which I had been guessing meant "ohne Dekoration"-- that is, that an award that SHOULD have been returned was NOT.

But when I was doing the LDH1s, I found a full remark that this ACTUALLY meant R?ckgabe "ohne Datum" so those returns DID occur. So there will be even FEWER "available" than I had previously thought.

Meanwhile, I found a note to myself from one of George's phone calls-- has this group appeared yet in Thies?---

Lippe-Detmold Kriegsehrenmedaille-Nichtk?mpfer Band

LD Leopold Order Inhaberkreuz

LDH- Gold Verdienstkreuz

LDH- Silver Verdienstkreuz

LD 1897 Einzug Medal

LD 1905 Lawsuit Medal

LD Kriegervereinkreuz

???

That fellow is identified, and I found in addition an 11.11.18 LDH4b that he got but never mounted on this group. Wish I had a xerox copy of that PURE LIPPE medal bar, but only my telephone notes.

It's out there somewhere-- what may be the BEST DECORATED lower civilian servant from Detmold!!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, I've just today finished the Merit Cross rolls that SHOULD have identified THIS one for my friend who owns it:

especially given how few of the Gold Merit Crosses were not returned...

BUT

The earliest rolls for the 1870/71 wartime Silver Merit CRosses are so deficient in data that it is not possible to exclude about ten "Last Names Only" with zero data to tell what they turned into later. I can come up with exactly TWO who had this combination of Merit Crosses and no other Lippe decorations (the War Veterans Cross and/or Leopold Crosses turn up with this pair almost all the time) but, wouldn't you know it, neither of those two listed himself in the Orders Almanac.

So, the key is the Albert Merit Cross. My Best Suspects are August M?ller or Wilhelm Hintze, but no way to verify or exclude any of the dozen or so at this point. Maybe some will drop out when I get to the Merit Medals. Arrrgh.

Well, at least Paul got his Saxon Baron Biedermann's LDH3 ribbon bar identified this week!

[Ulsterman]

Gentlemen and Lady (ies):

Rick showed me the work so far. I am awed.

It is stunning.

This is historical scholarship the way it used to be practiced in the highest order: clear, concise, informative, cross-referenced and accurate to the letter.

When these rolls are published it will dramatically change the way scholars have viewed many things about Wilhelmenian Germany's officer corps- and it will also change the way collectors view these historical remnants of men, some of whom were truly great men, are viewed. I know enough about this subject, obscure as it is, to understand some of the implications that can and will be drawn from this work.

You can also expect prices to jump upwards. Eleven years from now things will be much, much, much more expensive.

Rick, Daniel, Glenn, Dave and Chris- I take my hat off to you. I am glad I get to play about on the periphery of the scholarship you are completing. I suspect that at the end of my life it may count as one of the credits in the account columns of my life. It is an honor and I truly mean that.

You are great scholars and are doing a great service to the most beautiful of greek muses, History.

[Guest Rick Research]

My three Lippe Ehrenkreuz ribbon bars:

Top: char Generalmajor aD Wolfgang Freiherr zu Inn- und- Knyphausen (1866-1926) as wartime Inspector of Infantry Small Arms. LDH4(a) 18 April 1894. That's right-- the long-ago DETMOLD Honor Cross paired here with a red herring Schaumburg Lippe Cross for Loyal Service in War.

Middle: STILL Unknown. No Oberstleutnant seems to match (though could be a couple if not wearing all their peacetime stuff-- and RANDOMLY not wearing total peacetime stuff ). MAY be a lucky Hauptmann/Rittmeister with a Red Eagle 4 pre-war and this is a post-war bar. Been driving me nuts for years. I even went through all the SLHs page by page hoping for a BZ3aXmE match, but no luck. Presumably this must be a BZ3bXmE/RAO4, (S)L(D)H... 4th class of some type combination. May require doing all the SCHAUMBURG rolls before I can well and truly get at this one. Or maybe Jeff will have completed the hamburg and L?beck rolls so that pair will make the identification.

Bottom: OKW-Oberst (then Leutnant Res Inf Rgt 255) Hans Nuyken (1890- after May 1944). LDH4bX 22.9.14. His 1939 medal bar (with Volkspflege Decoration but not the KVK2X) was sold 25 years ago and has vanished without subsequent trace. I've been watching for it. every day. I never sleeep.

[Guest Rick Research]

FINISHED LIPPE-DETMOLD 1817-1918 TODAY

It comes out to 206 pages.

[Ed_Haynes]

Well done, Rick!

[Solomon]

Well done....but...next week I?ll visit the archive and I?ll try to make you some more work with Lippe-Detmold rolls.

The list of the recipients of the 1905-medal is still missing and waits to be written again from you

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

Having JUST finished the 1905 Medal roll sent to me by Solomon I am now in a position to answer Christophe's question about his 4 ribbon bar in post #2--

and the simple answer is, that can NOT be CERTAINLY identified.

There were ONLY THREE POSSIBLE wearers, people in action in WW1 who had the 1905 Medal--

1) Engelbert Freiherr von F?rstenberg (1869-1920) got the LDH3X 14 June 1918 as Major commanding Reserve Infantry Regiment 53. He had many many other awards, and would only have worn this as a Lippe version of the "Prussian front." If his portrait appears in that regiment's wartime history, perhaps that will reveal if he wore the "simplified awards" fashion.

The other two were both princes of the royal family who each received the GRAND CROSS with Swords on 3 October 1914:

Bernhard Prinz zur Lippe (1872-1934)

and

Friedrich Wilhelm Prinz zur Lippe (1890-1934).

I'd bet the four ribbon bar was worn by Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, as the youngest in age and rank--

and this is actually a version of "Kleindekoration" wear.

[Solomon]

Hmm, that?s interesting!

I did a little cross-check when I looked through the award-rolls of the LDH4 with X (bothe types A and B)

and marked on the list of the 1905-medal possible persons.

I didn?t complete this cross-check but I found two persons:

The first one, you already mentioned, was Freiherr von F?rstenberg.

Because of his many other awards from Lippe you can exclude him for sure.

The princes I didn?t found, because I hadn?t much time.

I marked another man on my list and now I have to check him again:

It?s No. 145 of the 1905-medal-list:

Heinrich Sievert, Ministerialregistrator

(I marked him not clearly , but I?m quite sure it?isn?t No. 144)

Can you look through the copies of your lists again and check if I mistaked?

Greetings

Solomon

[Deruelle]

It's a great news. Thanks Rick And Solomon for your help and your time you spend to help us.

I just want to know how a Prince could wear only a four ribbon bar including iron cross 2nd cl. Probably he had got several ribbon bars and I have the chance to buy one of them.

Just for information, who can receive the Lippe throne medal from 1905 ? This man had to belong to IR Nr. 55 ? May be in the statut there is something to explain that.

Thanks for your help

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

No, that is the OTHER Heinrich Sievert-- there were TWO with the same name:

The Regierungs Registrator who got the 1905 Medal only received a Silver Merit Cross. He was born in Hiddesen 6 April 1878.

The OTHER Heinrich Sievert was a Dr.jur. and Rechtsanwalt. Incredibly enough, he got an LDH4aX and an LDH-OX s Hauptmann (dR?)... but no 1905 Medal. He was born in Grossenmarpe 1 December 1880.

The 1905 Medals were given to:

all the members of the Lippe family who showed up, parade dignitatires and their wives (there are 28 awards to women, some with no more description than "widow"), to ordinary palace servants, but mainly to senior ( OLD) Lippe civil servants. The numbers are so small that it was not a general issue award to everyone on the public payroll, but only to hand selected people--

whether a table servant or a State Minister.

[Solomon]

No, that is the OTHER Heinrich Sievert-- there were TWO with the same name:

The Regierungs Registrator who got the 1905 Medal only received a Silver Merit Cross. He was born in Hiddesen 6 April 1878.

The OTHER Heinrich Sievert was a Dr.jur. and Rechtsanwalt. Incredibly enough, he got an LDH4aX and an LDH-OX s Hauptmann (dR?)... but no 1905 Medal. He was born in Grossenmarpe 1 December 1880.

Ah...I just compared the names and not their birthday...my fault

Roman

[Guest Rick Research]

That's why it is so TRICKY trying to figure out EXACTLY who some of these people were sometimes. At least these two guys also had their birthdates and places to tell them apart for sure.

Sample section: the original typed roll Solomon sent me, recipients 117 to 125

[Guest Rick Research]

And same people, data added from the rolls, so no matter WHAT the award is anyoine is looking for, a complete list of all that person's OTHER Lippe awards will show, and their birth and death data will too-earlyy and too-late groups to be excluded from potential recipients of bars.

ALL the Lippe Detmold awards will show every other award as found on the rolls for each person.

[Solomon]

Really fantastic work!

By the way...you showed a nice example:

There is a Eduard Pustekuchen (funny name in german), Geheimer Oberregierungsrat.

His medalbar (but without RAO III ?) can be found in the archive of Detmold

Reiner Schwark showed a photo of it in his Lippe-book.

There are the following awards on it:

Golden merit cross with swords on ribbon Lippe-Detmold

Cross for war aid Prussia

War merit cross on NC-ribbon Lippe-Detmold

Albrecht-order Saxony

Medal for 1870/71 with clasp "Metz" Prussia

Centenar-medal Prussia

1897-medal Lippe-Detmold

1905-medal Lippe-Detmold

Really a nice looking and impressive bar...I should ask, if I?m allowed to hold it in my hands...

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

He must have been bumped up to a RAO2 after the 1908/09 Ordens Almanach.

The archives has medal bars? Like all those returns are in file cabinets under their names?

He got his LDH-GVK as a Kriegsfreiwilliger in Inf Rgt 55 on 31 May 1871.

[Solomon]

He must have been bumped up to a RAO2 after the 1908/09 Ordens Almanach.

The archives has medal bars? Like all those returns are in file cabinets under their names?

He got his LDH-GVK as a Kriegsfreiwilliger in Inf Rgt 55 on 31 May 1871.

Yes, there are some awards, shown in Schwark?s book, which are lying in the archive (for example LDH1= Grosskreuz ).

But I don?t think these awards were the returned ones...

And there is the medalbar from Eduard Pustekuchen, maybe his estate were given to the archive, when he died.

This isn?t uncommon.

I never asked to look at these stored awards, I don?t know if you need a permission for that, but I?ll try it in the future

Solomon