Hanseatenkreuz

[David M]

The Archives at Bremen answered today on my request of friday, which I guess is pretty quick:

das Schriftgut zur Verleihung des Hanseatenkreuzes durch die Freie Hansestadt Bremen wird im Staatsarchiv Bremen im Bestand "3/4 Senatsregistratur - Schriftgut au?erhalb der Ordnungssysteme" verwahrt.

Es hat in Bremen bis zum Beginn der 20er Jahre ?ber 20.000 Verleihungen des Hanseatenkreuzes gegeben, so dass hierzu umfangreiche Listen und v.a. einen Kartei zur Verleihung entstanden sind. Die Listen bzw. die Kartei sind nicht ver?ffentlicht worden und k?nnen Ihnen schon allein wegen des Umfangs auch nicht in Reproduktion zur Verf?gung gestellt werden.

So far as I am concerned there are severall options:

cutting the project into parts, which some of our forum members could do e.g. 1915, 1916 Jan/Feb/March, 1916 Apr/May/Jun et cetera

a forum member in living close to Bremen with no other hobbys.

Any other ideas on how to get this ork done? What would the value be for our field of interest?

Any comments welcome

[Guest Rick Research]

1) Somebody will have to personally inspect those "various lists and cards" to see how messy and massive they are before attempting to copy them.

Neal O'Connor went and hand copied out the aviation recipients he was solely interested in, though he never told me how long even THAT took him. I presume the Rolls data will at least duplicate what is on docuyments: rank, names, unit, and award date.

2) Depending on the format of the Rolls and what copying equipment the Bremen Archive have (as well as having to do their own work during business hours), that would probably mean a copier or scanner would have to be brought in by the person wanting to copy the Rolls.

3) If the Archive cannot or will not make the copies themselves, even for a fee, then somebody has to GO there and arrange with them 1) & 2) above.

It has taken me six months to transcribe what probably amounts to 20,000 hand written wartime award entries. Though that has been increased by ADDING information and not simply transcribing the rolls. But at least, lucky me, the rolls I'm working on are already copied and in my house to work on!

[David M]

having read that, we can only ask for volunteers

Personally I will be to busy arranging my website and my own personal interest in pre 1871 orders and decorations.

[Wild Card]

Hi DavidM,

Thank you for taking the time to make the inquiry. If nothing else, it is important that you have established the fact that the records still exist; and judging by that 20,000 figure, it sounds like they must be pretty complete.

Maybe, especially in view of some of the current projects of this nature, somewhere down the road, we might take this one on. Hvaing worked on the search in the Princely Hohenzollern archives with George Seymour, Eric Ludvigsen and Neal O?Connor for Neal?s book, I can appreciate the amount of work such tasks require.

Again, thanks for your help.

Wild Card

[David M]

I will keep you all posted on any answers from Hamburg and L?beck too

David

[webr55]

That's a very important information you got! Sometime, somehow, these rolls will get transcribed.

[David M]

The answer from Hamburg

die Namenskartei der Inhaber des Hanseatenkreuzes liegt im Staatsarchiv nur auf Mikrofilm vor. Es handelt sich um insgesamt 7 Mikrofilme. Eine Duplizierung w?rde ca. 30,- ? pro Film zzgl. Versandkosten betragen. Sollten Sie dies w?nschen, teilen Sie es uns bitte unter Angabe Ihrer Postanschrift und des Benutzungszweckes mit. Ansonsten legen wir Ihnen (oder einer von Ihnen beauftragten Person) gern die Mikrofilme zur Einsichtnahme in unserem Lesesaal vor.

Soweit hier bekannt ist, wurde die Namenliste der Empf?nger des Hanseatenkreuzes bislang nicht ver?ffentlicht.

Sie k?nnen aber mit Hilfe der

B?cherkunde zur Hamburgischen Geschichte, hg. vom Verein f?r Hamburgische Geschichte, Teile 1-6, Hamburg 1939-2005. Darin sind die in den Jahren 1900 bis 1991 erschienenen Ver?ffentlichungen erfasst.

Hamburg-Bibliographie, hg. von der Staats- und Universit?tsbibliothek Hamburg Carl von Ossietzky, B?nde 1-6, M?nchen u.a.O. 1995-2004. Darin sind die in den Jahren 1992 bis 1997 erschienenen Ver?ffentlichungen erfasst [Website: http://www.sub.uni-hamburg.de/rb-fs.htm].

Literatur mit Hamburgbezug selbst recherchieren und dies somit selbst nachpr?fen.

Die Verleihung des Hanseatenkreuzes erfolgte in gro?en Mengen ohne besondere Begr?ndung f?r den Einzelfall und auch ohne besonderen milit?rischen Akt. Die Verleihungsrichtlinien entnehmen Sie bitte dem angeh?ngten Auszug aus der Hamburgischen Gesetzsammlung 1915. Dar?ber hinaus gibt es auch noch weitere Unterlagen im hiesigen Bestand 111-2 Senat-Kriegsakten.

Conclusion: they are ll still there!!!! that's just great but....how do you read a microfilm, is it possible to convert microfilm to a CD or something like that?

David

Edited March 7, 2007 by David M

[Ulsterman]

If that microfilm is available, I can copy it at the law library, easy.

How did you get it on microfilm?

[David M]

If that microfilm is available, I can copy it at the law library, easy.

How did you get it on microfilm?

The archive has it on microfilm....So do I understand correctly that you can make either scans or just paper prints of a microfilm? That would be great!! However personally I do not have the funds to have them make 7x30 = 210 euros worth of microfilm copies for me.

David M

[Guest Rick Research]

That is dirt cheap to get 50,000 names.

How legible the microfilms are, and how much of a chore to transcribe is another matter.

But let me tell you, sitting here in a room with a closet full of bound rolls copies about the size of 2 large microwave ovens only much, much heavier-- HAVING the rolls is half the struggle. Getting them available and then doing them is a problem for later.

I can only hope that whoever kept Hamburg's Rolls was the same person who wrote out the award documents-- classic penmanship.

[Ulsterman]

well, I'm in-how do we order them?

[David M]

well, I'm in-how do we order them?

Hi Ulsterman

I PM'd you the Hamburg contact datas

@ Rick

I know 50,000 is a bit muc. Would it be worth deviding it up into quarters-of-a-year amongst some of the forum-members? I mean, I could do one of those then, dunno in what time though. Or would you prefer one member doing all the work (which I am sure as we may not all could spend the amount of time you can, could take lets say a year?

Please tell me what you think

David

Edited March 8, 2007 by David M

[David M]

Last of the three: L?beck

das Verzeichnis der Inhaber des L?becker Hanseatenkreuzes (Neues

Senatsarchiv III 15/10a) ist bis jetzt noch nicht ver?ffentlicht, es umfasst

432 Seiten. Die Anfertigung von Mikrofilmaufnahmen kostet wie folgt: je

Aufnahme ? 0,50 (also ? 216,00) zuz?gl. Grundbetrag je Auftrag ? 3,00

zuz?gl. Porto. Sie m?ssten also mit Kosten von ca. ? 220,00 rechnen. Falls

Sie die Mikrofilmaufnahmen bestellen m?chten, m?ssten wir Vorkasse erbitten

(die Bankverbindung/Kassenzeichen ?bermitteln wir nach Bestellung).

Ansonsten besteht die M?glichkeit, dass Sie selbst digitale Aufnahmen

fertigen, die Kosten f?r die Erlaubnis zur Fotografierung von Archivalien

liegen bei dieser Anzahl der Seiten bei ? 25,00.

Subsequently I asked them if they could not put it on a CD for me:

leider sind wir technisch noch nicht in der Lage, mehr als 20 Digitalaufnahmen pro Auftrag zu machen. Wom?glich noch in diesem Jahr erh?lt das Archiv jedoch einen Bookeye-Scanner, dann lassen sich sicherlich mehr Digitalaufnahmen machen. Wann der Scanner jedoch genau angeschafft wird, kann ich noch nicht sagen. Wenn es nicht dr?ngt, w?rde ich vorschlagen, noch einmal in einem halben Jahr nachzufragen. Bedauerlicherweise kann ich Ihnen momentan keine zufriedenstellendere Auskunft geben.

[Guest Rick Research]

My time is COMPLETELY taken for 2007. In addition to the rolls I've mentioned having and am working on myself, I'll be doing the names/dates list for Schaumburg-Lippe's House Order (worthwhile doing even if almost no data at this point) annnnnnddddddd there is the possibility of additional rolls having been salvaged from Baden and Bavaria and ??? which I will pick up in the spring. I'm sure the two Lippes will take me into this summer, at least.

So somebody else is going to have to do MICROFILM of the Hanseatic Crosses. (What I have here are copies of the original paper pages. No ability to do microfilm.)

That is VERY good news on L?beck, another terrific bargain and certainly much easier (ha ha insane laughter, thunder and lightniong, organ music) to do 8,000 than 50,000.

Working FULL TIME on the Saxe-Meiningen War Merit Cross awards-- 5,000, took me a whole month. That's the sort of time frame to figure on transcriptions. Adding additional useful information such as Daniel and I are doing with the new rolls we've been working on triples the time, but is certainly worth doing right.

L?beck, Oh Happy Day, sounds as if the MAY be able to go digital, but at much greater cost. Their price for the microfilm right now is as much of a bargain as Hamburg's.

Sight unseen, I cannot speculate on how difficult these will be to read. The rolls I have range from illegible (largely written by ancient gnomes who only had to read their own handwriting) to classic copybook calligraphy. But to do these rolls will absolutely require an ability to accurately read Sutterlin script as well as the time to wade through them all getting done.

I will be glad to advise whoever takes the tasks on with how to proceed-- hopefully we can match the style and format of ours which will be published by Micahel Autengruber so that no matter where and by whom they Hanseatics get published, they will be easy to use as one coherent style and abbreviations system.

I congratulate you, David, on contactiung the archives and getting this very important process going. And praise and gratitude to the cities' archival personnel!

[David M]

As a sort of bonus, I would like to post here an Auszug aus der Hamburgischen Gesetzsammlung 1915, concerning the erection (if that is the right word) of the Hanseatic cross. however I don't seem to have the rights to do that. Anyone who has and would like to help me out please contact me.

Just an apatizer for anyone who likes to start of with the project. Again I would love to contribute but cannot do everything. I have just about a half an hour left between 5:00 and 5:30 in the morning. So should you be interested, please PM or reply here.

regards

David

Edited March 9, 2007 by David M

[Stijn David]

Hello David,

I would be able to do the Lubeck ones and would be willing to pay that ammount and transcribe them for publication in the format that is needed.

Please feel free to contact me on that as how to order the copies of the lubeck rolls.

Cordial greetings,

[David M]

Although some rolls have already been acquired by forummembers, I do not know if we have got them all already. I amsure we will find that out soon. Are you only interested in the Lubeck rolls Stijn or would you take on all 3 (1 at the time ofcourse)

Please let me know, and we will see what we do in starting up a project on the hanseatics

David

[Stijn David]

Hi David,

I have sent you a PM about this => i would do the L?beck ones, will be enough work on that one alone for the time being

Cordial greetings,

[David M]

I think it is really important that we unite on this, It would be a waste of all our precious time if there are several people with the Lubeck rolls all starting at the same point.

So pleeeeaaaase for your own good make have contact with each other here, devide the work and publish together! My bett is that it would be most valuable for if the publication would be in the way Rick and Daniel do theirs. But I just like uniformity (call me crazy).

For this we should want to know

1. who has the L?beck rolls already

2. who wants to join (no loads and loads, because coordination will be difficult and so will publication be in the end)

3. Ricks opinion on the endeavour

Again I would like to express my willingness to help out with the transcription

Edited August 21, 2007 by David M

[Stijn David]

Hi David,

You are absolutely correct, uniting in this is the best way and i will drop some mails in order to get us in one line to do this properly.

Please David M and Ulsterman send me your mailadress through PM, so we can discuss this all in once and easy. Bernd i already hvae yours ;-)

Cordial greetings,

[Guest Rick Research]

L?beck would certainly be "doable," since with only about 8,000 awards that would come out only a bit bigger than the Principality of Hohenzollern. When I did Saxe-Meiningen, there were almost 5,000 just of the War Honor Crosses, so Human Fingers CAN stand all that typing impact.

I think Ulssterman ORDERED the L?beck rolls, but don't know if he has RECEIVED them yet. He does have the Hamburg one, but there are format problems with that from the antique computer system the city used in making theose scans on the CD they sent.

The thing is, Daniel and I have not JUST been typing up the hand-written rolls, we have been ADDING information that makes them more valuable to researchers and our fellow collectors. In some cases what we have added is more than what is actually on the rolls. To do this, requires having the research materials

Rank Lists, Orders Almanac, Wer Ist's, generals bios and so on

as well as being ABLE to read Sutterlin.

I haven't seen any sample of what L?beck's roll LOOKS like, but I'll tell you-- some of these that I've done have been absolutely HORRIBLE

and I learned German in Sutterlin script.

Be very VERY sure about the effort, time, and commitment needed to get this sort of project done. I'm into my 14th month, and it looks like at least 2 more before I'll be done with the awards from the 6 states I've got. Five done in 13 months, and Schaumburg down to filling in the missing details--taking even longer than the transcription itself.

[Bernd D]

Rick,

this is one page out of the Luebeck rolls.

Bernd

[David M]

That is not to hard (from where I am standing at least)

Stijn, did I miss your mail to my personal address or do you still need to send it? PM'd you my address earlier this week.

David

[Stijn David]

Hello,

@ Bernd : Indeed that is readable, feel free to send me the files and please prefer in wich form (xls?) you want these etc .... then we can start ;-)

@ David: i have not mailed because one person did not respond so far, and i tought it was better to get all persons in one and the same e-mail.

Cordial greetings,

[Guest Rick Research]

Bernd-- that is certainly a nice legible index-- somebody must have copied down the numerical rolls AFTER the war and put them in alphabetical order.

So what is the story? Is L?beck definitely being done?

I would suggest this format for columns as it is worked on, so that space is left to fill things in:

Use size 8 or 9 for your letters. CENTER/CENTER/WRAP TEXT each column to make the spacing as neat and distinct as possible. Type it all in black, with some other color for corrections and additions.

SAVE EVERY DAY. SAVE IN DIFFERENT PLACES. SAVE ON YOU HARD DRIVE, SAVE ON CDs, SAVE on FLOPPY DISKS... make sure you have MULTIPLE copies and not all on your computer. Send copies to people you trust for proofreading and adding information. That way nothing will happen that will make all that work disappear after months of labor!

A) Last name, first name

B) Rank/position and unit/job

C) date of award

D) rather wide column for adding comments (birth and death years, important awards like PLM, Prussian GMMC etc)

E) five digit space for the numerical entry on the ACTUAL roll from which these are the alphabetical INDEX (there may be something else on the real roll, and an exact number-- believe me on this !!!!-- will be easier to find by "laufendes Nummer' than by date since dates are NOT always when these were ACTUALLY entered (March after June and so on)

F) small column to make an initial "M" for navy, "B," "S," "W" for Bavarian, Saxon, W?rttemberg personnel, and "Z" for civilians since there will be many, "?," "Bu," "T" for Austrians, Bulgarians, and Turks, "?" for "Unknown ?? foreigners." This is a column that will be of no importance at all in a printed work but will help the transcriber to SORT things while entering--

"there were XXX awards to Bavarians..." and so on.

Example of format Daniel and I are using-- and believe me, after XXX,000 entries, we've worked this out as the best working format to use--

for work in progress, with notes to ourselves in that "D" column where additional notes for the printed version will be. I have only kept full birth data, when available, in the "B" column of Schaumburg because that is where it is for the Detmold Super Rolls and we want the format of the two Lippes to match for that reason. In the case of L?beck atc I would put birth and death YEARS in the "D" column like (1895-1971). In the rolls I have worked on there are often marginal notes or a "Bemerkungen" column in position "D" in the original and you will see one such entry here, NOT in the brackets where I put added information not on the actual roll. This L?beck index should be much simpler since there appear to be no such additional comments.