Gordon Craig Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 (edited) Gents,One of the things that is hard to find, even in Hungary, are uniforms belonging to civilian organizations. I've managed to pick up a few and lucked in today on an early Kadar period Fireman's uniform. Charles and I went to a Flea Market I had not been to before and it was worth the trip. Pictured below is a grey senior officers tunic from the firefighting services. Saying this is a senior officer uniform is an educated guess because I have no references for this type of uniform. I am basing this statement on other uniform ranking systems of the same period. Senior officer have larger stars than junior ones and gold is an officers colour versus silver for members at the NCO level. Three large stars may be the equivalent of a Colonel in the military. The shoulder board colours probably have a specific meaning with the red background, echoed behind the collar badges, sivler inner trim and gold outer trim but I do not know what that is. I have been trying to find time for several weeks to visit the Firefighters Museum but haven't made it yet. If, and when, I find out what all these colours mean I'll post an explanation.The tunic is of the standard three button, four pocket design of the period. There is no evidence of any awards or medals ever having been fixed to this tunic. The gold buttons bear the state crest of the Kadar period. The shoulderboards are of the sewn in type. There is one inner pocket in the left breast. There are no lables or markings of any kind in the tunic.Regards,Gordon Edited March 17, 2007 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 Next is a close up of the collar insignia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 Now a close up of the shoulderboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 Gents,Firefighters hats are just as rare as their uniforms but I managed to pick up two at the Military Museum Store last month. The first photo will be of a cap design belonging to the Rakoci era. I am not altogether satisfied with this cap for a number of reasons.1-the cap badge matches the age of the cap but it was pushed through the lining before the prongs were folded over. Cap badges are normally installed before the lining is installed and are not visible inside the cap like these ones are. 2-The plastic cap cord is correct but has Kadar type buttons. This could be ok as caps were often "upgraded" with new buttons etc. after a regime change. Time and research will resolve these points.The cap was never issued and still have the manufacturers paper tag inside. The manufacturer seems to be the "Sapka ??" company. Unfortunately. whoever cut the lable to size before gluing it into the cap cup most of this part off. Stamped inside of the cap are; PV? and the size 55. Sorry that the photo is a little blurry. I'll post more, and better ones, later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 The next cap is 100% correct for the uniform posted earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 The tunic is for a Capt (gold stars) if it was a Col it would have silver stars. Also just FYI of everyone - what makes this a late 1950's - late 1960's is the white liner to the sleves. They had this practice of the white "striped" silk liners for the sleeves way back to WW2 - continued it up till the 1960's. From 1957 to 1963 this open collar type of uniform was used as a parade dress uniform. Even after the 1956 revolution the service uniforms remained to have the closed collar with the 5 sided collar tabs. But these parade dress uniforms showed the Hungarian nation that - of all things - the image of the civilian service and the military "we have returned not to the WW2 / WW1 era, and not back to the Rakosi / Soviet era - but have reverted back to the Hungarian Republic of 1945-1949 era" (!!!) In 1963 this parade tunic was also then desingated as the serivce / work tunic. (to save on material and costs) Sadly after 1957 they quit putting state maker stamps on these - so its only a rougn guess of the period when it would have been worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share Posted March 18, 2007 Charles,Thanks. More info to file away. Surprised about the star colours but then this is really a new area for me.Cheers,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Gents,Time to add more fireman's hats from my collection. I'll start with a winter cap that I picked up at the Military Museum here in Budapest. I have never seen a cap like this in use by any other Hungarian organization. It is a dark blue winter hat with fake fur fold down flaps. It is also padded inside. There is a stamp on the lining but it is not readable. This cap also has the smallest cap badge I have ever seen on any Hungarian cap. It measures 20mm wide (5/8") by 24mm wide (15/16") It has two holes on each side so it can be sewn into place. The chin strap is not a usable one, just for looks. It is sewn to the cap at each end. This would appear to be a cap used very early in the Communist period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 A side view of this early fireman's cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 ..."Military Museum store"....????The museum sells stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) The next cap is a much newer one and bears a totally different cap badge from the previous cap. This one appears to be from the Kadar period. The cap is the same shape and style as that worn by the armed forces. It is made froma light wieght material with a plastic sweat band. The lable on the interior gives us the name of the manufacturer; SZOVETKEZET, Budapest; the two words used for hat in Hungarian "SAPKA aNd KALAP"; that the cap is made for a man (FERFI) the size 9MERET) is 57 and it is for the Firebrigade (TU.O) Tűzolt?s?g. Below that is printed T ABORI the meaning of which is not clear as it could indicate one word or two. Edited March 20, 2007 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 A side view of this cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Now a picture of the lable inside of the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ulsterman,Yes the Military Museum has a store, like most museums, except this one sells stuff a collector would be interested in. Uniforms, hats, shoulderboards, collar tabs etc. Charles and I have bought some nice stuff there. The prices can be high, especially on uniforms, but some stuff is reasonable and rare. For example, the first thing I bought there was a complete Customs Officers tunic. All insignia etc. I have never seen another one for sale. A lot of the tunics you see for sale at the monthly show, or from flea markets, have been played with and you are never quite sure what you are buying. Cheers,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hauptmann Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Ulsterman,Yes the Military Museum has a store, like most museums, except this one sells stuff a collector would be interested in. Uniforms, hats, shoulderboards, collar tabs etc. Charles and I have bought some nice stuff there. The prices can be high, especially on uniforms, but some stuff is reasonable and rare. For example, the first thing I bought there was a complete Customs Officers tunic. All insignia etc. I have never seen another one for sale. A lot of the tunics you see for sale at the monthly show, or from flea markets, have been played with and you are never quite sure what you are buying. Cheers,GordonHi Gordon,Boy do I wish we had those kind of museum shops here! WOW!!!! Here it's all pens, pencils, t-shirts, keychains, books, cd's, DVD's and calendars. Yawn! But I'd walk several miles... or drive a ton of em' for a museum that sold militaria! That's my kinda museum!!!! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) Charles and I had an opportunity to visit the Firefighter Museum here in Budapest on Wenesday the 28th of March. A very interesting place filled with lots of uniforms, medals, photos etc dealing for fire prevention etc from Roman times up to current stuff. Not a place many people visit but for anyone interested in collecting Hungarian uniforms or medals it is well worth a visit. We spent just under two hours there and I can see at least one more, and possibly two, visits in the near future. Because almost all of the displays that we took picutres of was behind glass some of the pictures didn't turn out at all and others a fuzzy. Please excuse the fuzzy photos but even then there is lots of interest to see.In the uniform picture I posted to start this thread the collar devices are crossed fireman's tools. In some of the photos I'll post today the collar insignia is of a fire truck. According to the guy at the museum, the crossed tools meant people involved in fire prevention while the truck indicates guys who actually fight the fires. I am not sure this is actually the case as all of the English text material we picked up at the mueuam talks about "fire prevention" only even when they are referring to actually fighting fires. I am going to start with a uniform from the Rakoci period which is earlier than the one I started this thread with. Edited March 30, 2007 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) Now a closer view of the uniform. Good shot of the medal in wear. Edited March 30, 2007 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 Next a close up of the cap shown in the above photo. It is a very interesting cap because it is almost exactly the same as the military cap worn by the Hungarian military during WWII except it is in grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 A side view of the cap showing the triangle worn on the left side. Also the same as worn traditionally by the Hungarian military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 Now we will move on the a uniform from a later period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 A close up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 A closer view of the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) Now we will move on to a general officers uniform. Of interest here are the rank badges and cap badge which are exactly the same as for a general officer in the military and the Akademie badge which is also for an army Akademie. Edited March 30, 2007 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 A closer view of the tunic and ribbon bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 A close up of the peaked cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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