paja Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 You're welcome, glad if I could help. I enjoy discussions about details like that. Best regards!
paja Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Here are both types including both variants of the second type. Edited June 26, 2015 by paja
paja Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Now here's the trick how to easily tell types apart. On earlier type top of the head of the worker with hammer is "round".TYPE 1 Edited June 26, 2015 by paja
paja Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) On 2nd type (both variants) top of the worker's head is "flat".TYPE 2, 1st variant (silver) Edited June 26, 2015 by paja
paja Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Is it me or does that guy on the right look like Stalin?
Eric Gaumann Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) Are the 3rd class versions, without any hallmarks, always tombak (aka red brass)? I'm looking at an example right now that exhibits a classic silver patina, not the shiny 'chrome' nor the splotchy finish that is typical with tombak. I see no hallmarks and the seller claims "silver" but I'm not sure. Edited March 22, 2017 by Eric Gaumann added image
paja Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I can't give you a definitive answer but that's certainly a possibility. For example I've seen silver 1st class orders (Type 1) without hallmarks. Apart from that there are other silver orders made by the same factory without hallmarks, for example I have one Order of Military Merits like that, same thing with the Order of Merits for the People... If it's Type 1 then it's definitely silver, I believe tombak (or whatever cheaper metal they used) variants of that type don't exist. Edited March 23, 2017 by paja
Eric Gaumann Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 9 hours ago, paja said: I can't give you a definitive answer but that's certainly a possibility. If it's Type 1 then it's definitely silver, I believe tombak (or whatever cheaper metal they used) variants of that type don't exist. Thank you, Paja! It looks like a Type 1. Do the two metals have a different weight? Can you give weights for silver and tombak in 3rd Class, please? On closer inspection it looks more like T2. So more than likely tombak? It does have that nice patina though. I want to believe.
paja Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Don't mention it, Eric! Looks more like Type 2 to me. Considering that those orders are far from rare I'd suggest getting one that is silver without a doubt, although I must say that one looks nice regardless of the material they used. Generally speaking most of them cost around the same, whether they are Type 1 or Type 2, silver or not. It's not a problem to give you weights, but unfortunately that won't get you anywhere. Weights vary even within the same type... For example Georg14 and I have compared weights of orders from our collections and his Type 1 and Type 2 were both around 5 grams heavier than mine. Type 1: 60,5g Type 2.1: 67.8g Type 2.2: 65,8g Edited March 23, 2017 by paja
paja Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) On 6/16/2008 at 19:03, wlodzimierz said: Images of new type of Order of Yugoslavian People's Army 1st cl. This order is made from tombac in 1981 - 1985, it has no hallmarks. I've been reading older posts and this one caught my attention. I'm convinced that that order is made out of silver even though wlodzimierz lists it as a new tombak type from 1981-1985. It's Type 1 and all of Type 1 orders were made out of silver regardless of class. Apart from that all of 1st class orders were made out of silver. Tombak was used for the production of 2nd and 3rd class orders... So to conclude, that's early, Type 1 order, made out of silver without hallmarks on the back. Edited March 23, 2017 by paja
Eric Gaumann Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 6 hours ago, paja said: Don't mention it, Eric! Looks more like Type 2 to me. Considering that those orders are far from rare I'd suggest getting one that is silver without a doubt, although I must say that one looks nice regardless of the material they used. Generally speaking most of them cost around the same, whether they are Type 1 or Type 2, silver or not. It's not a problem to give you weights, but unfortunately that won't get you anywhere. Weights vary even within the same type... For example Georg14 and I have compared weights of orders from our collections and his Type 1 and Type 2 were both around 5 grams heavier than mine. Type 1: 60,5g Type 2.1: 67.8g Type 2.2: 65,8g Many thanks for that information. I was under the assumption that tombak was lighter, I guess that's not the case. 6 hours ago, paja said: I've been reading older posts and this one caught my attention. I'm convinced that that order is made out of silver even though wlodzimierz lists it as a new tombak type from 1981-1985. It's Type 1 and all of Type 1 orders were made out of silver regardless of class. Apart from that all of 1st class orders were made out of silver. Tombak was used for the production of 2nd and 3rd class orders... So to conclude, that's early, Type 1 order, made out of silver without hallmarks on the back. What do you think about that idea of silver-plated tombak? Have you ever heard that? It might explain the patina on your and my examples. I also get the sense that the other, more obvious tombak examples (that have that shiny chrome look), have some sort of clear lacquer applied to them. Agree?
paja Posted March 24, 2017 Posted March 24, 2017 Type 1 orders are smaller in size so that's the reason why they are a bit lighter. Type 2 silver one is just 2g heavier than the one made out of tombak. And like I said weights vary even within same type, Georg's Type 1 is 65,6g and Type 2 72,1g. Some Yugoslav orders are definitely made out of silver plated tombak, I have one early Order of Labor 3rd class with most of the silvering gone and you can clearly see that the base is made out of brownish metal. I think lacquer is applied on the last type of that order so that might be the case with the Order of the People's Army as well, I'll check tomorrow if I can see traces of it and let you know. I've read an article by Nenad Bjeloš about these orders and according to the author Type 1 orders were produced until 1961. Tombak was introduced in the '80s and only 2nd and 3rd class were made out of it, so all 1st classes are silver. Based on that I think it is safe to say all Type 1 orders are made out of silver. Stojan Rudež who was the Chief of the Chancellery of Orders wrote in his book that this order was instituted on January 1st 1952. but the final solution for it's design was chosen in April 1953. He also states that 2nd and 3rd class were made out of tombak from 1980 onward. So we have this timeline: Type 1 (silver) 1953-1961 Type 2.1 (silver) 1961-1980 Type 2.2 (tombak) 1980-1992 1953-1980 silver 1980-1992 tombak
Eric Gaumann Posted March 25, 2017 Posted March 25, 2017 On 3/23/2017 at 21:30, paja said: I think lacquer is applied on the last type of that order so that might be the case with the Order of the People's Army as well, I'll check tomorrow if I can see traces of it and let you know. First, thanks so much for your help in increasing my knowledge about these! Concerning the quote above regarding lacquer use and my questions that prompted the reply; I just noticed on the first page of this post a silver hallmarked award that exhibits the 'splotchy' patina that I attribute to lacquer. It may not even be lacquer; there are many reasons patina develops in less uniform ways.
paja Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 Apologies for not replying sooner. You are welcome, I enjoy discussions like this. Perhaps they used a different technique later. I've never seen Order of the People's Army with the silvering gone unlike early Labor Order. Also most of them are still very "shinny" while those Labor Orders have patina...
BalkanCollector Posted May 7, 2017 Posted May 7, 2017 Here are my 3rd and 2nd class. I cropped it from the other photo I took a while ago. That's why it has a weird angle.
BalkanCollector Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Found this interesting picture of a prototype of the Laurel Wreath class of this order. Unfortunately I couldn't find a larger one.
paja Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 That's prototype (2) of the 2nd class order, to my understanding there were three prototypes of the People's Army Order. First class prototype (2) is pretty much the same but it has a laurel wreath around the central ring.
BalkanCollector Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Ah yes, I stand corrected. I don't know why I typed Laurel Wreath when there isn't one around the center. I must have had something else on my mind while I was typing this haha.
paja Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) Ko radi taj i greši Here's a photo of prototype 1 of the 2nd class from H.D. Rauch's "Medal Auction 2014". It was wrongly attributed as the prototype of the War Banner Order (Orden der Kriegsflagge (D) Erste Probe) Starting price: 3.000 EUR, unsold.LINK Edited August 7, 2017 by paja
BalkanCollector Posted August 8, 2017 Posted August 8, 2017 That's an interesting one. It looks like it's Soviet. I guess that's one of the reason they didn't accept it.
paja Posted August 8, 2017 Posted August 8, 2017 They had one more interesting piece, most probably Order of the War Banner prototype Starting price: 5.000 EUR Price realized: 6.000 EURLINK
BalkanCollector Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 Finally took better photos of few of my pieces. 3rd class awarded in 1974 to a technical Captain 1st class. IKOM, rooster in hexagon and 900 silver hallmarks.
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