Schaumburg Lippe

[Yankee]

Hello Gentlemen

Did not see a dedicated thead to Schaumburg Lippe, perhaps one can start. If anybody has orders & medals to the sister state please post & show. Pictured is an officer cross in silver gilt which would make it a WWl example. Crown is mobile not fixed. There is an old tag possibly from a catalog unfortunately written possibly in old German, maybe a member can help translate. Would there be a list of recipients who would have received this class of order still in existence. Thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[Chip]

I believe that the back of the tag reads, "Furstl. Schaumburg Lippe Hausorden Offz. Ehrenkreuz". The front of the tag is a bit too small for me to make out all of the words. Thanks for showing this very beautiful piece.

Chip

[Wild Card]

Hi Yankee,

A great idea. At the moment, all that I can offer is the 1808-15 military remembrance medal which is shown below because my other Schaumburg-Lippe pieces reside some distance from home; but I will try to have some of them here in a couple of days for some pictures.

Meanwhile, I would like to pose a request. I have seen groups with, and pictures of recipients wearing, the Schaumburg-Lippe military merit medal with the sabers on the ribbon; but do not recall any groups or pictures of recipients with the swords or Red Cross (Genfer Kreuz). Does anyone out there have any?

Thank you in advance,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Reverse.

[Riley1965]

Thanks for the pics of these Beautiful gems!!!

Doc

[Steve Russell]

Here is a fighting man offering. Steve

[Steve Russell]

Back side

[Yankee]

Here is a fighting man offering. Steve

Nicely mounted with matching ribbon bar , noticed that many of the German States have their own style of court mounting most prevalent on single pieces. I suppose that is for another topic.

[Guest Rick Research]

I have the rolls for the Schaumburg Lippe Honor Cross in all grades from 1890 to 1918. These are entries like "Schmidt, Kommerzienrat, day/month/year" and the Chancery file number and absolutely nothing else. There are random entries (I cannot tell why) from BEFORE 1890, but insignificant as far as numbers, so basically if there is a roll from 1869 to 1890, I do not have it.

There were 248 awards of the Officer Cross without Swords 1899-1918. Without knowing an absolutely firm solid date from when silver gilt came in as opposed to gold I wouldn't want to guess how that 248 divides up. With 248 total, it doesn't much matter, does it?

It looks to me like the tag is simply from an OLD German collection, with catalogue information. The "Hofkammernummer" 623 and the other number (that side is too small at this point for me to read) as file numbers are from the circa 1907 period and so would not match to a recipient from a later period. Nor can I think of any reason why a person would refer to himself or another person by a file number and not a name. Hence my interpretation that it's a collection tag.

When I get to the Schaumburg Roll, it will be possible to deduce at least the number of returns by promotions within Schaumburg's Honor Crosses. There are NO notations on what is basically simply a chronological name list (divided by initial letters, all names starting with A from first to last and so on).

Returns in the Lippe Detmold rolls are absolutely terrifying. Presumably an equal proportion of Schaumburg's awarded pieces were also returned and so are not really "out there."

[Yankee]

I believe that the back of the tag reads, "Furstl. Schaumburg Lippe Hausorden Offz. Ehrenkreuz". The front of the tag is a bit too small for me to make out all of the words. Thanks for showing this very beautiful piece.

Chip

Hi Chip

Thanks for that, noticed a bunch of numbers on front side of tag, perhaps number of awards for the order or maybe an auction catalog lot #

[Yankee]

Glade the Schaumburg Lippe thread is welcomed, certainly a Principality with a long history & beautiful Buckeburg Castle ancestral home of the Prince's

[Yankee]

I have the rolls for the Schaumburg Lippe Honor Cross in all grades from 1890 to 1918. These are entries like "Schmidt, Kommerzienrat, day/month/year" and the Chancery file number and absolutely nothing else. There are random entries (I cannot tell why) from BEFORE 1890, but insignificant as far as numbers, so basically if there is a roll from 1869 to 1890, I do not have it.

There were 248 awards of the Officer Cross without Swords 1899-1918. Without knowing an absolutely firm solid date from when silver gilt came in as opposed to gold I wouldn't want to guess how that 248 divides up. With 248 total, it doesn't much matter, does it?

It looks to me like the tag is simply from an OLD German collection, with catalogue information. The "Hofkammernummer" 623 and the other number (that side is too small at this point for me to read) as file numbers are from the circa 1907 period and so would not match to a recipient from a later period. Nor can I think of any reason why a person would refer to himself or another person by a file number and not a name. Hence my interpretation that it's a collection tag.

When I get to the Schaumburg Roll, it will be possible to deduce at least the number of returns by promotions within Schaumburg's Honor Crosses. There are NO notations on what is basically simply a chronological name list (divided by initial letters, all names starting with A from first to last and so on).

Returns in the Lippe Detmold rolls are absolutely terrifying. Presumably an equal proportion of Schaumburg's awarded pieces were also returned and so are not really "out there."

Hi Rick Research

Just saw your post after my reply to chip. Very fascinating info you put out. Then that would make the silver gilt pieces awarded before WWl too. I thought there was a law or ruling all pieces in silver gilt were issued in 1916 or after in regards to the Lippe Prinipalities. Just for argument sake, would you know how many were issued between 1916-18? That is if the file numbers are not from 1907 circa but later. Thanks a bunch for your in depth research.

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't think that tag has anything to do with the award rolls, though.

Without knowing an absolutely firm date from which the materials changed, here are the ENTIRE annual numbers for ALL of 1916 and 1917 and 1918 for the Offizierkreuz:

1916 = 16

1917 = 9

1918 = 12

Yeah.

But then if they went to silver-gilt earlier (or later-- they might have had previously made and paid for awards on hand and kept handing them out until they were used up--I have never seen any data on such changes)...

that total 1899-1918 is still the maximum possible.

I'll be getting to the Schaumburg rolls in a couple of weeks, and once I can start cross-listing, will know at least how many had to have been turned in on appointment to a higher class.

MANY Lippe awards were given by the two states to the same recipient in some sort of competition for which gave out the cooler/higher grade (what's German for "nyah nyah nyah?") so I'll be able to add in notes on Detmolders who got Schaumburg awards. If they turned in their Detmold awards, chances are their Schaumburg ones were returned as well.

[Guest Rick Research]

Award document for a WW1 Cross for Loyal Service in War as seen on the medal bar above:

Much nicer than the usual German paperwork. Note the number of the "Ordensliste" at bottom left: that certainly suggests that a list was kept.

I just got the pages for World War pinback crosses today, so there may well be a complete roll for these ribboned awards too. And thaaaaaat would be nice and "doable."

[Guest Rick Research]

TINY Schaumburg with ribbon bar for a Reserve J?ger Battalion 7 or 9 officer (yup, that IS the Georgian Order of Saint/Queen Tamara last ribbon ) who has confused things by switching the precedence with his CfLSiW from the ribbon bar to the chain with his Hamburg Hanseatic:

I can't think of another Imperial German ribboned award that had a blank smooth reverse like the CfLSiW.

[Yankee]

I don't think that tag has anything to do with the award rolls, though.

Without knowing an absolutely firm date from which the materials changed, here are the ENTIRE annual numbers for ALL of 1916 and 1917 and 1918 for the Offizierkreuz:

1916 = 16

1917 = 9

1918 = 12

Yeah.

But then if they went to silver-gilt earlier (or later-- they might have had previously made and paid for awards on hand and kept handing them out until they were used up--I have never seen any data on such changes)...

that total 1899-1918 is still the maximum possible.

I'll be getting to the Schaumburg rolls in a couple of weeks, and once I can start cross-listing, will know at least how many had to have been turned in on appointment to a higher class.

MANY Lippe awards were given by the two states to the same recipient in some sort of competition for which gave out the cooler/higher grade (what's German for "nyah nyah nyah?") so I'll be able to add in notes on Detmolders who got Schaumburg awards. If they turned in their Detmold awards, chances are their Schaumburg ones were returned as well.

Hi Rick Research

Absolutely amazing that both states would award the same person, good info to know so when I come across a picture or medal bar, I will not think my eyes are playing tricks. When I was thinking of 1916, it was the officer cross with swords that came to my mind, so I just assume 1916 was also the same time period without swords. As I understand there was a law passed for economic reasons to produce the pieces in silver gilt. I see from your figures not so many awarded without swords during the war. This order is being copied extensively, no class seems to be spared. Particularly concerning are the early post WWl examples where the quality is good . It has always been my assumption if there was any markings then you have no worries but that is not the case. Even an old tag does not prove the authenticity of my example, can only go on a gut feeling since I've not handled enough. I thank you for your amazing ability, hope to have chance to repay your kindness All the best.

Yankee

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah. Swords. We don't want word to get around on THOSE, just yet, oho. If you can find any, buy 'em N-O-W.

Any Lucky Mortal who HAS a Schaumburg Honor Cross in any grade with Xs is blessed indeed.

[Solomon]

Nice to see the "other" roses...at least only one order I have from Schaumburg-Lippe...a special one, I already showed you.

Here it is again:

Order for art and science 2nd class Schaumburg-Lippe (cross type 1902-1918) on a bow-style ribbon for women

There were 119 awards between 1899-1918 for the 2nd class, 30 women got it.

The first class was awarded 35 times...

The showed belongs to Sanna Klara Valentin-Strandberg (called "Lilly Walleni", a opera singer),

who got it December, 12th in 1913 as "F?rstlich Lippische Kammers?ngern" in Hannover.

She also got the order for a. and s. 2nd class with oakleaves ("Lippische Rose 2.Klasse mit Eichenlaub") Lippe-Detmold in February 1914.

Greetings

Solomon

[Solomon]

and revers:

[Deruelle]

Great Solomon,

It's always a pleasure to see such rare item.

It is possible to see and compare the knight cross with X from Lippe Detmold and Schaumburg Lippe. It will be very interresting. I don't know if someone has got these cross in collection. It will be nice. If I remember correctly, I saw in an old review (INFO) an article about cross of Schaumburg Lippe. I will see.

I only have a ribbon bar with KVK from Schaumburg Lippe

Regards

Christophe

[Steve Russell]

Rick,

Beautiful mini and ribbon group. And that is the first Urkunde I have seen. Thanks for posting it. Solomon, fantastic! For those that want to see some more S-L Loyalty Cross, I had a thread over at the WAF that has many beautiful pieces as well from members of both forums. Steve

Schaumburg-Lippe Cross

Edited April 8, 2007 by Steve Russell

[Ed_Haynes]

My meagre offering:

[Riley1965]

These are some VERY INTERESTING medal & ribbon bars!!!

Doc