Luxembourg Netherlands Order of Oranje-Nassau

[mravery]

Hey Jeff,

Nice item.. I didn't realise that you were the one that picked that one up off eBay !!

Cheers !

Mark

[JBFloyd]

Always interested in foreign awards to Americans, especially with documentation. Also interested in American awards to foreigners.

[Great Dane]

I recently acquired a partial group to a Danish captain (who among other things spent some years as a naval attach? for the viceroy of the Chinese province Chihli).

Here is his Oranje-Nassau Knight Cross.

It was awarded on 6. January 1900 (for yet unknown reasons...)

Actually the picture doesn't do it justice - the gold parts are absolutely stunning!

[Herr General]

Great, could we see the rest of the group?

[Great Dane]

Sure. It's a small group, so the only other part I have is his miniatures.

The Danish Order of Dannebrog was probably returned (as per regulations) and the Chinese Order of the Double Dragon (3. class, 3. grade) has - unfortunately - disappeared.

He only received these 3 orders.

/Mike

[Herr General]

Do you have a name? Maybe I can find some info!

Great group!

[Great Dane]

His name was Andreas August Kinch (1861-1929). He was a navy captain (last rank).

Here is a picture of him wearing his orders (that Chinese Double Dragon order is HUUUUGE! )

Someone told me the ON award date, but sadly I can't remember who...

Any help will - of course - be greatly appreciated

/Mike

Edited November 29, 2007 by Great Dane

[David M]

Hi Mike

the ON awards was from January 6th 1900. I sent you the original mail from Erik Muller again to your private mail address. BTW would his danish career record also give the data on the Chines double D order?

Edited November 29, 2007 by David M

[Great Dane]

Ah, yes yes yes, I knew I had that mail somewhere

Thanks again to you both by the way...

I guess the Chinese order was given for his services as naval attach? by the viceroy of the Chinese province Chihli. A position he held 1903-08 (and I know for certain that he got it before 1910).

He had retired from the Navy in 1903 (age) but after he returned to Denmark in 1908, he continued his career in the Navy and finally retired for good in 1918.

/Mike

Edited November 29, 2007 by Great Dane

[mravery]

Hey Mike,

What a cool group... love it and the history !!!!!

I found the 'star' for the commander's badge.... on it's way to me today.....

[mravery]

Reverse with a nice maker's mark. M.J. Goudsmit - La Haye.

I wonder if it is the same maker that made the commander's badge. They came form the same seller and appear to be the same period....???

[mravery]

Hey guys,

A couple general questions concerning the Oranje-Nassau....

1) Was this order required to be 'returned' upon the death of the recipient?

2) Are there any numbers published in regards to how many Civil and Military versions were awarded by date and by the class of the award ?

Cheers

Mark

[landsknechte]

Here's my one lone example of it, appearing on a fairly nonsensical German bar.

[JBFloyd]

To Mark's question,

The last page of the statute book says: "According to the statutes of the Order of Orange Nassau, the insignia thereof must be returned in the event of the death of a member or of his promotion to a higher class of the Order. In the case of the death or promotion of a member of the Order residing in a foreign country, the insignia can be transmitted to one of the Netherlands Legations."

That's from Royal Decress, No. 12 of 12 April 1923.

[mravery]

Hey Jeff,

That's great info.. thanks !

But this raises another question. If the awardee purchased the award from the private jeweler.. must it still be returned or is it only the ones that came from the government 'mint' to be returned ?

I'm assuming that the same rules would apply to other countries as well and not just the Netherlands.

Cheers

Mark

[JBFloyd]

The "return" policy would apply to issued pieces. Few countries really chase the families of deceased recipients, but will often make a token effort. I don't know of any cases where there was a knock on the door as the family returned from the funeral.

Foreign recipients add a bit of public relations to the mix, as well. The Danish government asked for the return of Dwight Eisenhower's Order of the Elephant after his death, but an appeal from the Eisenhower Museum allowed it to stay there.

[Guest Rick Research]

In my work with German Imperial-era awards, it was far more likely for natives to have their decorations reclaimed (local obituaries must have made the knock on the door easier)-- often within days of the recipient's demise. "Condolences on your loss, now fork over his Order."

Awards to foreigners seem to have been written off as a matter of course as non-recoverable.

[Great Dane]

Danish orders were (and still is) reclaimed very meticulously.

In the early 1900s when the amount of awards had risen significantly and it proved more and more difficult to have them returned from foreigners (or rather their relatives...), it was decided that awards to foreigners should be made in silvergilt instead of gold. A matter of cutting the loss...

/Mike

[mravery]

How would you know if an item was an 'issue' piece or a private purchase item, especially if the item was not numbered?

I would assume that if you were awarded an order (Danish, Dutch etc) and went to a jeweler to purchase a duplicate (and he is the same jeweler that the official pieces come from) that you would keep those ????

This is damn confusing !

Edited December 3, 2007 by mravery

[Great Dane]

That is a very relevant question.

In Denmark the problem only applies to the stars (GC and Commander). Badges are rarely privately made and if they are, they're normally very easy to recognize (there is only one official maker).

Metal stars were officially awarded from 1909 in Denmark, and so far only 3 different types were made of each. But of course the same jeweler (Michelsen) also made metal stars for private purchase before 1909 and actually the first official star was one of his popular types. So who can say if a star of this type is official? Sometimes you can take it apart and see a date on the inside but not always.

And another question:

The relatives to a deceased recipient normally receives a letter asking them to return the award. If they don't they must pay quite a large sum of money instead (but still less than it costs to make another award). But that means, that in theory some awards are 'bought free'. Now, can these still be claimed...?

/Mike

Edited December 3, 2007 by Great Dane

[ErikMuller]

On the recipient cards of the Chancellery of Netherlands Orders a remark was written when the award was returned. This also applied for foreign recipients. After fifthy years it is assumed that the recipient has died and no effort is made to get the piece returned. However, in the past the Chancellery did made efforts to get the pieces back, but nowadays it is cheaper to make a new piece.

Since Dutch Orders were only fabricated by official manufacturers no private made pieces, unless they were of smaller model, can be found. All full size decorations are supplied by the Government.

[JBFloyd]

Are there rolls of recipients? Foreign recipients? I have an American group with a civil Orange Nassau, knight, and would really like to find out when/why he received it.

[ErikMuller]

Jeff,

PM me the name and I can probably get you the date of award. The why will be more difficult.

Gr.,

Erik

Are there rolls of recipients? Foreign recipients? I have an American group with a civil Orange Nassau, knight, and would really like to find out when/why he received it.

[DutchBoy]

I heard from my cousin (her husband's relative had one awarded to him) that upon the death of the recipient, the family can now keep the piece by paying a token sum to the Chancellery...

[ErikMuller]

I heard from my cousin (her husband's relative had one awarded to him) that upon the death of the recipient, the family can now keep the piece by paying a token sum to the Chancellery...

True, but why pay an incredible high amount of money (surely no token!), when you can say you burried it with the deceased, or simply that you lost it?