Who has ribbons ?

[mravery]

Hello All,

I need a contact for ribbons to create a medal bar (for display)...... There are a couple of German medals and other countries... Original or newly made are fine (meant for display, not to deceive) !

Also... mounting bars (as shown in pic).

Any ideas ?

Cheers

Mark

[Ed_Haynes]

"Create"?????????????

[mravery]

Hey Ed,

Yes.. to create.. to 'replicate' a general's bar.....

Using loose, non-mounted medals and putting them on a bar for display on a general's uniform.

And.. before you ask (as you have asked me before in other threads)... NO... I never destroy any groups or original bars to make my displays. ALL of the items I use are loose items. The bars I create are also never meant to deceive as they are made up of modern parts (just original medals/orders or sometimes ribbon stock).

Example of my bars... this one is for Ernst I von Sax-Altenburg.

If you have a particular concern about this, please let me know.

Cheers

Mark

Edited May 12, 2007 by mravery

[Daniel Cole]

I think that is awesome! I got the same criticism when I built von Richthofen's bar. I ended up trashing it and buying a new mandolin (and a very expensive one from the sale of the individual pieces). Wilfried Freitag in Bad Duisburg can hitch you up with the needed ribbons for your project. I'm particularly sensitive to this issue. I invested a lot time, MONEY and love finding and assembling v. Richthofen's medal bar only to be blasted by "purists". I ruined nothing, deceived no one.........

freitag has a web page:

http://www.consularis.de/sammler-eck/index.htm

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi guys..... ask yourself why this is a very sensitive thing to talk about.... maybe not everybody builds medal bars like this because of "display reasons"...... Herr Freitag himself sells very "questionable" medal bars on a internet auction house and even more (not) questionable battle clasps on the same auction house and on ebay - makes no good feeling to me if a "creator" sells things for other people new creations..... I would never create or rebuild a bar like this, original old or nothing - BUT THIS IS ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION!!!

Of course you can buy the ribbons from him or actual on german ebay, there are a lot of ribbons offered, search through the 1870-1914 section in the militaria section...

greetings

Heiko

[mravery]

Hi Heiko,

I appreciate your reply to this thread.. and this subject should probably be discussed in another thread.

We are ALL purists and passionate in one manner or another when it comes to this hobby. My love is in the uniforms and personalities of the men that wore them. One way that I can 'honor' thier service and respect to thier uniforms is to properly display them in thier full glory. In order to do this, they need to have medal bars. What are my chances of ever finding (not even mention affording) Ernst I von Sax-Altenburg original bar....... not a chance.

So... in order to accomplish my goal, the bars must be 'created' (as evil sounding as that may be to some)... To do this I only use loose medals to create the display. In regards to Ernst, it took me 2 years to find the correct loose medals to finish the bar. It would have been easy to find respective bars with the medals and pull them off..... but that's NOT an option in my mind and never will be. Part of the passion is the love of history and destroying it defeats the love.

What is the difference if someone displays a bunch of loose medals in a tray under glass.... or the same medals mounted and displayed on a bar ?

Or...... is it proper to display a Commanders badge or a breast star in a case... or mounted on a uniform ? Where do the 'order purists' draw the line between what is acceptable and what is sacrilege? In reality.. the medals were made to be WORN not placed in a display case........

I can understand everyone having a passion. What I don't care for are the negative 'snippets' that are made without any further follow-up to the remarks when they are questioned.

You mention the dealers creating these bars to sell as original.... well... that is a different story as that is a case of FRAUD for a profit.....and is a whole different problem.

Sorry..... I'll come down off my 'soap box' now.

Daniel.... NICE bar.... I can relate to your comment about time and money to create the display..... another fine display of a collecting passion !

Cheers

Mark

Edited May 13, 2007 by mravery

[Ed_Haynes]

Honestly, I am not sure any followup and ongoing discussion would serve any useful purpose, and could very easily be divisive. Maybe we must just agree to mutual disagreement and incomprehension? Maybe I do things that make you cringe, Mark.

[Paul C]

That is an absolutely beautiful tunic. I see nothing wrong with rebuilding mrdal bars for display purposes. Where did all the loose medals that are now available come from? They were once on medal bars and were taken off. A friend of mine who is a long time collector remembers going to shows in Germaany in the 70's and 80's and being able to buy medal bars, minus the medals, for next to nothing.

[Daniel Cole]

I guess only the late Neil O'Connor was able to to this without scorn since he was writing a series of books we all cherish.

[Ed_Haynes]

I guess only the late Neil O'Connor was able to to this without scorn since he was writing a series of books we all cherish.

Who says "without scorn"? In his partial defense, he was operating in an era when the place of medal groups as (1) pieces of history and (2) things easily faked was not as well understood. As late as the 1970s, ripping apart named British groups was still seen as a legitimate practice. Values have changed, research has enlightend us, and ethics have improved.

[mravery]

Hey Paul,

The loose medals ?

I'm not expert.. but I would say that some were never mounted (they were awarded loose).. some may have been 'seconds'.... some may have been from bars that were 'butchered'..... also.... keep in mind that a lot of the European states required the gold orders and medals to be returned upon the death of the recipient... Hence the bars that are complete minus the gold items.

Also.. from what I've been told.. many families sold off the gold items for money in order to live.... remember.... only we as collectors try to preserve the history behind these.... the families that owned them.. just wanted to survive.....

There was a Bavarian MVO 2nd class in gold that I was chasing a while back that was missing two of the flames... the story was that the owner had them removed in the 50's so that he could melt down the gold to fill his teeth. (true or not.. don't know.. but it makes logical sense)....

Cheers

Mark

Edited May 13, 2007 by mravery

[mravery]

Hello All,

I have placed a thread concerning creating medal bars here as that was not my intention for this thread:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18295

Cheers

Mark

[Wild Card]

I guess only the late Neil O'Connor was able to to this without scorn since he was writing a series of books we all cherish.

And, I might add, Neal saw to it before his death that the various pieces and parts of his collection were, in total, donated to the appropriate museums where they would be displayed in perpetuity. None were or, hopefully, ever will be offered to the open/collector?s market.

Regards,

Wild Card

[mravery]

Ok guys,

Not to sound ignorant... but what book are we discussing writen by Neil O'Connor ?

Cheers

Mark

[Yankee]

And, I might add, Neal saw to it before his death that the various pieces and parts of his collection were, in total, donated to the appropriate museums where they would be displayed in perpetuity. None were or, hopefully, ever will be offered to the open/collector?s market.

Regards,

Wild Card

Great he had the good fortune not to stick it in the ANS

[Wild Card]

Ok guys,

Not to sound ignorant... but what book are we discussing writen by Neil O'Connor ?

Cheers

Mark

This would be the seven volume series titled ?Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in World War I?.

[mravery]

Thanks WC

I am familliar with that title.. just never knew who the author was.

Cheers

Mark

[Wild Card]

Glad to be of help. In all honesty, I can not speak to the value of these books to the uniform collector; although, even as a medal collector, I have found the variety of uniforms worn by the aviators to be quite interesting. I will say though that I do think that they are surprisingly informative and under appreciated with regard to awards and decorations of the World War I era.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Great he had the good fortune not to stick it in the ANS

Sorry, Yankee - it took me a while to figure out ?ANS?. Yes, fortunate indeed, but there is no guarantee that they will stay as intended indefinitely. We can only hope.

[922F]

Time for a thread on museum donation issues?

"...displayed in perpetuity..." what does that mean?

At least in the U.S. for decades, from Gillingham to Honeyman, from Pelosi to McKay, it usually ends the same way. Bequest/gift terms ignored, "non-core items deaccessed for needed funds", material locked away under indifferent but cumbersome/bureaucratic "safeguards" & basically inaccessable, or looted. There're a few exceptions to be sure (SAR?) proving the general rule.

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, only a governmental place like the Smithsonian Institution is stuck in this regard. They have a very nice medal collection, of which none is on display or ever likely to be on display. But they also have boxes and boxes and boxes of US WWI Victory Medals, "gifted" to the SI by well-meaning next-of-kin who believed that their husband's or father's medal would be somehow displayed in the US national museum. It will be kept it storage because, by law, the Smithsonian can not do otherwise, they cannot deaccession a gift from the public. Until the tags fall off these medals, it will be possible, if you wished to know, to say which medal belonged to whom. If anyone cared, which no one does. It is all very sad.

I guess this is better than the British pattern of medals being gifted to regimental museums and lying forgotten in a drawer somewhere until they're sold out the back door or simply thrown out in some office cleaning.

Perhaps only a multi-generation chain of collector custodians will really care for these things and grant them the research they deserve, but then this brings us back to the problem of the introduction of poison ino the system in the form of spuriously "invented" groups.

[Wild Card]

"...displayed in perpetuity..." what does that mean?

displayed = form of the verb display = as in ?show off? or ?exhibit to advantage?

in = preposition

perpetuity = noun = ?the state or quality of being perpetual? (lasting for an indefinitely long time or continuing indefinitely without interruption).?

Put another way. The recipient (museum) will (1) not bury/relegate the donated items to the ?back rooms? , (2) sell them off to fund other projects, programs, etc. but will (3) make them available for all to see during normal viewing hours, again etc.

[922F]

displayed = form of the verb display = as in "show off" or "exhibit to advantage"

in = preposition

perpetuity = noun = "the state or quality of being perpetual" (lasting for an indefinitely long time or continuing indefinitely without interruption)."

Put another way. The recipient (museum) will (1) not bury/relegate the donated items to the "back rooms" , (2) sell them off to fund other projects, programs, etc. but will (3) make them available for all to see during normal viewing hours, again etc.

Ed notes that bequests/gifts may "disappear" out the back door or simply be regarded as encumbering trash after the bloom of a handing over ceremony, or basic purpose, fades. What to do with the dross? I cited some museum bequest/gift situation excuses in my first post.

My first post was intended to indicate that when material is presented to an institution under the unequivocal condition that "x" percent will be on public display for whatever purpose in perpetuity at that institution, or a stipulation that the material will be available for research purposes in perpetuity at that institution, there is no guarantee that the institution will honor its commitment. In fact, experience shows breach of commitment (due to Force Majeur, naturally!!) in almost every case! That is the context of the particular deceased enthusiasts' names I listed?and the ANS for that matter. What recourse, then, exists? Practically speaking.......and in my view....NONE!

The example of Dr. McKay and the Smithsonian offers an illustration. I disremember McKay's exact donation to the Smithsonian terms, SGY may know them. However, the Smithsonian undertook to display a specific percentage, probably five percent, of McKay's sizable award collection donation in explicit exchange for his substantial bequest. These terms were publicized at OMSA conventions and at the display inauguration. Those who may recall the early 1970s McKay display will remember that it occupied an approximately 600 square foot area with purpose built floor and wall display cases and well designed lighting on the top floor, militaria section, of The National Museum of American History near a war of 1812 gunboat.

When "space requirements" dictated a scale back in the mid 1970s, the display contracted to one-third the size in about 200 poorly configured square feet. The Lilly coin bequest and subsequent "redesign" of the "numismatic area", ended with McKay's baubles restricted to an entry hall with six or so wall hanging display cases. By the 1990s, McKay's bequest was "all placed in the vaults." A wall hanging case or two reappeared in about 1996 but those were gone in 1998. The National Museum of American History is now closed for renovations, so who knows what the future will hold for McKay's bequest/display.

So, practical perpetuity's first victim, display intent--probable violation of gift/bequest "display" terms.

In 1970-71, I spent six months negotiating with Dr. Stefanelli to view McKay's entire donation as part of a research project. That effort certainly suggests a problem with access to the material even at that time. (Actual time spent reviewing the holdings was about 40 hours. I wonder how the access issue would go today! )

Practical Perpetuity's second victim, public accessibility--probable violation of bequest "access" intent.

I had list of many, but probably not all, items belonging to McKay. About ten percent of the listed awards, over 250 items, could not be located anywhere in the Smithsonian during an almost two year search. Bob Werlich, who viewed the collection in the 1960s, recounted the same story but he thought that about 150 things were missing. Well, who knows, maybe McKay sold those pieces before his death.

The Smithsonian cooperated with OMSA in displaying select McKay bequest items at the 1972? Silver Spring convention. However, when I revisited the entire holding in 1983, more "medals", including some items that were on public display in the early 1970s and several of the pieces that had been displayed at the convention, "could not be located". Further, even photos of most those things had "gone missing!" Imagine my surprise!!!

Practical Perpetuity's third victim, custodial safeguarding?likely violation of bequest item preservation responsibility OR??..what happened to the goodies?

(If they did go out the back door, let's hope they're safe in someone's collection!)

Neal O'Conner had an ideal solution but then he had knowledge and financial resources making his museum possible. Even so, in his final days, he could not ensure it's survival, explaining his donation. I know that several recently deceased, extremely serious "ordens-kunde" students consciously made the decision not to donate their materials to museums or other repositories primarily because they wanted their treasures to stay in the hands of those who appreciate them. What could be better than to have a decoration that stayed with a valued friend for a while that you know will move on to another who will understand what it really means in due time??

In the event, it becomes increasing clear (Thanks, Ed!) that:

Perhaps only a multi-generation chain of collector custodians will really care for these things and grant them the research they deserve, but then this brings us back to the problem of the introduction of poison into the system in the form of spuriously "invented" groups

N.B. On balance, museums face real space/funding issues. Appears that, unless you've very special circumstances, gifts/bequests to an institution under the unequivocal condition that material will be accessible to the public, or even safeguarded, in perpetuity at that institution is not realistic or enforceable.

Edited May 15, 2007 by 922F

[Ed_Haynes]

Long years ago, in a universe far, far away, when I was an undergraduate at my university, I was a summer research intern in the Division of Military and Naval History at the Smithsonian. Scary thought: This was 1976, as I recall the OMSA convention in Philadelphia -- my first -- and the absolute tourist-infested chaos in DC that July. It was a great experience, mostly working on things I cared little about, but I learned how to do research that summer.

I also learned about the organization and structure of the Smithsonian. The division in which I worked was concerned (as one might expect, being lodged in the National Museum of AMERICAN History) only with US military and naval items. While good curatorial and research work was done in fields the staff cared about, no one knew anything (or cared at all) about medals. The boxes of WWI Victory Medals I mentioned above were just items in storage, no one had looked at them in years or decades. Likewise, no one had bothered even to prepare a focused catalogue of Pershing's medals, which were all crammed into a single collection drawer (and I do mean crammed). I offered to order and catalogue them, and everyone found this exotic, but sure, humour the kid, let him do it (until they all had to get shoved aside when my desk was taken to lodge the collection item that some Midestern kid and his congresssman wanted to share a photo-op with: Cher Ami -- Pershing's medals get shoved aside for a bloody pigeon!).

Back on topic. The McKay collection was not under the Military and Naval Division -- as most of his medals were not US -- but was under the Numismatic Division. The organization of the Institution presented problems here. Portions of the McKay collection (tiny parts) were on display not in the square feet assigned to Numismatics (as they weren't real things: Coins), but in the area assigned to Military and Naval. A major and literal turf war was brewing the summer I was there, as the naval archaeology displays (the field of the division's director) were expanding and they needed the space "those silly medals" took up. These petty office and inter-office politics infest even the Smithsonian. As a temporary staff member, I wasn't able to gain any access to the McKay collection, though it was quite clear as it wasn't US and wasn't COINS or TABLE MEDALS, it wasn't seen as important. We have seen recently with the American Numismatic Society sales even more evidence as to why phaleristics is not numismatics, and why we maybe can't trust those numismatic types, even though they claim to be our cousins.

Any museum, whether in the 1970s or now, is there to do two things: display and research. The displays -- especially for a place like the Smithsonian -- have to play to the least common public denominator, to have more resemblance to a circus than to serious scholarship. With limited display space, you can and will only display those things that catch the eye and attention of the undeding streams of busses of school children -- George Washington's uniform and the nice shiny Gatling Gun were prime draws, while visitors strolled quickly past the McKay pieces on display, right past, I watched them do it, not a glance. The research is conducted by a very able staff on things that interest them (and, yes, it sounds like fun). One of them was finishing a book on post-Civil War US saddles, for example. The director of my division was doing underwater archaeology on Revolutionary War and War of 1812 era gunboats. The guy I did research for was working on repeating weapons during the Revolutionary War. No one cared AT ALL about medals. The numismatic folks cared even less, focusing on US coins and, because it was the director's pet interest, on Italian renaissance (table) medals.

I assume the McKay collection is still there, and I wouldn't be susprised if some of it had simply been lost -- to imagine Smithsonian storage, think about the final scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" -- and possibly some of it has strolled out the back door, though I doubt it. Poor Mr. McKay, in retrospect that donation was quite unfortunate.

As "922F" has said, collectors are better custodians than museums. Rather than give your collection to a museum, give it to the OMSA (you'll get the same tax break or can put it into your will) and let them auction it for the research fund (as I think happened with Al Gleim's collection). It will wind up in the right hands, collectors' hands.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Riley1965]

One place that does display some U.S. medals donated by the family is the VA Hospitals. Over my year long stay at the Dallas VA hospital I saw several displays. Just a thought...

Doc