Imperial German Tanks

[ccj]

Imperial German Tank Troops

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What branch of service were troops assigned to tank units drawn from. I can't find any information of the men assinged to the tank troops during WW1.

[bob lembke]

Charles;

My father was sent to train in captured British tanks, and after a week during which he thought he was to be in a tank crew he and the others were told that they were going to fight tanks, not fight in tanks, and the purpose of the week was to show them what an awful gun platform a moving tank was. He was a Pionier. However, Sepp Dietrich of WW II fame was a tanker, and he was from the Bavarian artillery. And the Panzer=Abteilungen were sent, after formation, to Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) for finishing their training, and the formal name of the units included the word Sturm. Storm units themselves were infantry, Pionier und Jaeger.

To me, all of the above tells me that the men of the German tank units came from a variety of military backgrounds. I guess that you know that 2/3s of the German tanks in organized units were Beute=Panzer, captured British Mark IVs.

Bob Lembke

[ccj]

Bob,

That's very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to inform me. I really don't know much about WW1 tank units though my interest is growing. I had no idea 2/3s of the German tanks were captured brit tanks.

Charles

[bob lembke]

I have seen a photo of a large outdoor depot where the Germans had many dozens of captured tanks awaiting refurbishing or cannibalization for parts. The refurbishment might have been assisted by the fact that British tanks had Daimler engines made in the UK. The Germans planned to add some 200 tanks to their army in 1919, and as their industry was terribly overstretched the use of the easily captured tanks was a lot more sensible than making their own. The German A7V looks terribly clumsy but I believe it performed much like the Brit tanks. However, it was designed to carry a Trupp of ten storm troopers as well as the fighting crew, to be off-loaded behind the enemy front line, hence the boxy design and astonishing "crew" of 18. Hence it was a combination tank/APC. Only 20 were made, 15 formed into three Panzer=Abteilungen.

A Bavarian vehicle maintenence unit had a refurbishment assembly line for fixing up Mark IVs set up in a remarkably large shed-like facility, a photo of which I have seen.

Bob Lembke

[infantry]

A fantasy picture of German tank hunters from The Times.

[Deruelle]

Hi,

If you are looking for a very nice book with rare photos and items about Imperial German Tank you have to buy this book : ok it is in french but it is very useful.

LARCADE (J.L.), L?A7V Sturmpanzerwagen, Jonquerets de Livet, De Bello, 1998, 79 p.

Regards

Christophe

[ccj]

LARCADE (J.L.), L?A7V Sturmpanzerwagen, Jonquerets de Livet, De Bello, 1998, 79 p.

Where can I find this book for sale?

[Deruelle]

I think this book is out of print. When I was member of the De Bello association I have the opportunity to meet this autor and I have only one book in my collection.

I give you a link and hope you can find this book

http://www.librairie-ac.com/contact.html

Regards

Christophe

[Tom Y]

Check AbeBooks.They don't have that particular title, but there seems to be a fair selection by other authors.

[bob lembke]

Check AbeBooks.They don't have that particular title, but there seems to be a fair selection by other authors.

I think that, at any given moment, abebooks lists about 70,000,000 books for sale, so they offer lots of different books, and if they don't offer a copy of a book it must be quite scarce. Lots of German used book bookstores list their offerings on abebooks as well as ZVAB. I don't know about French bookstores.

Lacarde wrote a nice book about German stormtroop units, sort of an Osprey type of book, I got one from the publisher, but they seemed to be for sale for about $80, a bit steep for a paper-bound short book.

Bob Lembke

[Deruelle]

Hi Bob,

I have paid the Larcade's book 34 euros. I don't know where you have bought it but it is a little high price

Regards

Christophe

[bob lembke]

Hi Bob,

I have paid the Larcade's book 34 euros. I don't know where you have bought it but it is a little high price

Regards

Christophe

I got my copy at about 34 Euros from the publisher, but then the print run, possibly only 500, was sold out, and I tried to get a copy for a friend, and ran into really high prices. I hope that it was reprinted.

Bob Lembke

[rast]

Jean Louis Lacarde died about three years ago - while working on a book about "La Panzerwaffe 1918", which remained unfinished. May he rest in peace. - Regarding the German tank formations, they belonged to the "Kraftfahrtruppen" (motor transport service). The detachments thus had "Kraftfahrer" and "Waffenpersonal" (weapons personnel), the latter drawn mainly from artillery (for the guns), infantry or machine gun units.

Interestingly, the commander of the detachments was an engineer captain, as was his deputy. The detachments had five Lieutenants as tank commanders (theoretically Kraftfahrers, but in reality a mix of everything), one artillery officer and one machine gun officer (both lieutenants as well).

The replacement unit was the Kraftfahr-Ersatz-Abteilung 1 at Berlin-Sch?neberg. Thus uniforms with Kraftfahrer "K" on the shoulder straps and machine gun sharpshooter badge on the arm together with Prussian guard lace on the collar were not uncommon.

[bob lembke]

Jean Louis Lacarde died about three years ago - while working on a book about "La Panzerwaffe 1918", which remained unfinished. May he rest in peace. - Regarding the German tank formations, they belonged to the "Kraftfahrtruppen" (motor transport service). The detachments thus had "Kraftfahrer" and "Waffenpersonal" (weapons personnel), the latter drawn mainly from artillery (for the guns), infantry or machine gun units.

Interestingly, the commander of the detachments was an engineer captain, as was his deputy. The detachments had five Lieutenants as tank commanders (theoretically Kraftfahrers, but in reality a mix of everything), one artillery officer and one machine gun officer (both lieutenants as well).

The replacement unit was the Kraftfahr-Ersatz-Abteilung 1 at Berlin-Sch?neberg. Thus uniforms with Kraftfahrer "K" on the shoulder straps and machine gun sharpshooter badge on the arm together with Prussian guard lace on the collar were not uncommon.

It is interesting that Lacarde has passed away. I wrote the publisher of his storm troop book, who self-described as being based in a little village who only got to a bank a few times a year, asking for Lacarde's address, so I could send him some material (the book contains a request for topical material from the readers), and the publisher said that Lacarde really didn't like people to have his address, and that I could send material to him, the publisher, instead. Hmmm!

The strong connection to the Pioniere is not surprising. One of their traditional roles was the testing of new weapons, even ones you would not connect with the pioneers. For example, the predecessor unit to Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) , which had an important role in training the tank Abteilungen, Detachment Caslow, was a pioneer unit formed to test a new Krupp 37 mm infantry gun, which also was equipped with a special gun-shield; Caslow was a Pionier=Offizier as well. As to the Litzen, the Prussian Guard lace, Storm Battalion Rohr was, I believe, authorized to wear it, although they were not really a guards unit; perhaps the same honor was extended to the fledgling tank units.

My father trained in captured Mark IVs for a week, but only to build confidence in troops that were to fight tanks, mainly with geballtne Ladnungen, large explosive charges. The German A7Vs were at one time intended to carry one or two light flame throwers, although I have never heard that this was actually done. (If this is true, please sound off.) The Flammenwerfer could be an effective anti-tank weapon if the tank could be approached from the rear; the crews were warned not to try to take a tank from the front. I have an interesting account of a tank being destroyed that way; blasts of flame and smoke from the rear from a little distance (the units of the period had a range of about 80-90 feet) probably drive bearing gun crews from their weapons, plus providing good cover; the crew then rushed up to the tank and fired directly into an orifice, probably a gun slit, and finished the tank off. I don't think that this was done many times.

Bob Lembke

[rast]

On February 11th, 1918, a first refurbished captured Mk.IV arrived at Doncourt training ground of Sturmbataillon 5 (Rohr) for testing. Already on February 12th, Major Reddemann, CO of the flame thrower regiment, conducted an exercise with this vehicle. He sat in the tank while it was subjected to a flame attack. - Reddemann observed that he quickly ran out of oxygen and that the oil and grease on the tank quickly catched fire. As a consequence, he hurriedly evacuated the vehicle.

[bob lembke]

On February 11th, 1918, a first refurbished captured Mk.IV arrived at Doncourt training ground of Sturmbataillon 5 (Rohr) for testing. Already on February 12th, Major Reddemann, CO of the flame thrower regiment, conducted an exercise with this vehicle. He sat in the tank while it was subjected to a flame attack. - Reddemann observed that he quickly ran out of oxygen and that the oil and grease on the tank quickly catched fire. As a consequence, he hurriedly evacuated the vehicle.

Hi, "rast";

Very interesting. My father only mentioned Reddemann twice in his letters (the ones that I have), he was near him only for a few days total, but his mention of him clearly indicates that Reddemann was a take-charge leader, or at least manager.

That is a great anecdote. I know and possess much of the documention of the Flammenwerfer (FW) effort from the FW side, so I would guess that story is from a different sort of source, perhaps from a tank or S=B Rohr source. Are you able to share the source?

The story is a bit like the story about how, in an early test of poison gas, Fritz Haber and Colonel Bauer galloped thru the gas cloud, not really good for man or horse. I gather they were poisoned a bit. Bauer was also involved in the FW effort, and had good things to say about Reddemann.

Bob Lembke

Bob Lembke

[rast]

This is from the "tank side". - War diary of Sturm-Panzerkampfwagen-Abt. 1.

[bob lembke]

This is from the "tank side". - War diary of Sturm-Panzerkampfwagen-Abt. 1.

rast;

I have read a good number of German sources, but I don't even know if I have heard of someone accessing German war diaries, although I think I have seen citations of war diaries on the level of a division, I believe.

I believe I have read English, Australian, Canadian, and French war diaries, I believe. Are some of these German war diaries found in German archives?

Two or three years ago I went on the web-site of the Library of the Bundeswehr Historical Section (this is all from memory), and it said to write them, do not e-mail, so, with a bit of pain, I wrote a two-page letter in my mediocre German asking about resources, access to outsiders, etc. I never got a response. Are they a resource? Do they have an on-line catalog?

Can you say where you found this war-diary?

Bob Lembke

[TS Allen]

I think the German Bundsarchiv is what you would ask for about that. Or maybe they just lost your letter, I for one have horrible luck with mail to and from German. Don't know why, maybe German mail only runs properly under totalitarian government?

~TS

[Naxos]

according to Brockhaus, 1923;

Germany had in the begining of 1918 twenty Kampfsturmwagen (tanks) and by the end of the war forty-five tanks of German design.

Hardy

[rast]

The only German tank arm war diary that is preserved in original is that of Bavarian Abt. 13, which is in the Bavarian state archive (but rather incomplete, combat actions were stored in separate folders, of these only two survived). All other (Prussian) tank detachment war diaries were reduced to ashes in April 1945 when the Reichsarchiv was bombed. What survived are copies made for other purposes. These are complicated to find, and an archive will most probably tell you they have nothing - as the stuff is listed differently.

The Germans had 20 vehicles of their own A7V type and a total over time of perhaps 90 captured British Mk.IVs in their service, the number available at any time, however, never exceeded 45 (A7Vs plus Mk.IVs).

[bob lembke]

This is from the "tank side". - War diary of Sturm-Panzerkampfwagen-Abt. 1.

Hi, rast;

Can I deduce that, since this very interesting account of Reddemann and the Mark IV is from the war diary of Sturm=Panzerkampfwagon=Abteilung Nr. 1, and the only surviving panzer war diary is that of Abteilung Nr. 13, that the description of Reddemann and the Mark IV was cited from the war diary before WK II, before the original diary was destroyed, and cited in another, probably secondary source? Possibly in Gruss?

Do you know if it is true that some of the documents from the Prussian State Archives actually survived and were carted off in 1945 and now have been returned? Wishful thinking?

Gruss aus Philadelphia,

Bob Lembke

[rast]

It's from a copy of the Abt. 1 war diary made before 1945. This copy is incomplete and also may contain mistakes made in the process of writing it down. As to the Prussian files: Unless Russia comes up with a big surprise, there's little hope.