Heer PAB 25

[Raz]

War badges are not my thing anymore so what's your take on this one?

From a friends collection:

[Jim P]

I don't have my reference with me right now,but I'm not liking the over all quality of this one.I can't remember ever seeing one where the rivets are all the way through the front of the tank.

Jim P

[lach470]

I agree....something about those rivets showing through the front....would have me concerned.

Rob

[Raz]

thanks for the opinions guys.

[Peter J]

These are difficult badges and I'll not comment on this specific piece, but the rivet issue is worth mentioning. Until just recently I'd never seen any numbered badge with the rivets coming through on the obverse. Therefor I was rather surprised when one was declared "kosher" on the WAF. There is also one pictured in Detlev's new book.

The numbered GAB's and PAB's are very elaborately designed and manufactured (although made exclusively in zink) and "spoiling" such a nice appearence with two rivets doesn't make any sense to me. Just my two bits.

KR

Peter

[Mike K]

Hi,

These badges are difficult to evaluate from images as, like the GB semi-hollow examples, there are some very good repros in circulation. This one looks like it might be OK, although imo the images aren't good enought to see fine obverse detailing. I do have some very minor issues with the form of the numbers in the number box on the silver example presented.

Regarding the rivets coming through the tank, this is a KNOWN GENUINE method of attachment. Notice that the placement deliberately coincides with the center of a couple of the track wheels. Examples of this type have been obtained directly from German veterans. If you need to see one in print, try and get hold of Joerg Hormann's "Uniforms of the Panzer Troops; 1917-to the Present". He shows a Bronze 25 of this type attributed to Cavalry Captain Ludwig, Baron von Heyl (Reconnaissance Unit 36) - P86 of the ?A5 sized English language hardback edition.

Regards

Mike K

Edited September 2, 2005 by Mike K

[Peter J]

Hi Mike,

I know you are familiar with these badges and I'm not in any way challenging your statement, but could you please elaborate about the "Known genuine" a bit further i.g. when did this info become public knowledge. This is still a "grayish" area for me, but in light of the "Wernstein-affair" I need more input that just a reference to Hormann to form an opinion of my own.

KR

Peter

[Mike K]

Hi Peter,

I'm not really sure how I can proove this to you if you have not done your own research. Regarding when this type of badge became public knowledge, probably some time after June 1943 - but I'm sure the soldiers who were awarded them didn't take that much notice of the rivets holding the tank onto the badge!

If you were referring to published references equating to public knowledge, Hormann's work was published in 1989. The 100 Grade of the same type in Angolia's "For Fuhrer & Fatherland" was published in 1976 (I only have the 1985 reprint so I assume it is also in the original edition). Bob McCarthy published examples from his collection in 1980 (Collector's Guige III). The earliest published example I have is of another 100 Grade from a magazine called "Militaria" published in Los Angeles in 1970 (Vol II, Number 1). Prior to that I doubt there was much publishing on the subject at all! I have not checked over Doehle, but that may be worthwhile.

I have seen several examples of this type obtained by collectors directly from German vets. I have not specifically gone looking for period photographic evidence of this type of badge though.

You either believe or you don't based on your own research level and your faith in the statements of collectors who say they have obtained them directly from veterans. Although I don't believe in buying an item based on a story, at some point you have to take the credible stories onboard or you are missing the history.

Regards

Mike K

[Peter J]

Hi Mike,

The general essence of what your saying is undisputed, also very nicely put. Research is important and questioning the obvious is not a good way of collecting. The more information I collect, the easier it is to form an opinion of my own. If something on the other hand doesn't make any sense to me, I'll follow it up. I remember what Frank said once: "Anyone can write a book".

My question about "general knowledge" was not related to the actual badge, only the specific production method of drilled through pins. I consider myself an amateur, but in more than 30 years of collecting, I became aware of this type just a year ago. A reference to veterans is a good start, as we both know not always rock solid proof though. Information found in reference books is another, great source but not always correct. And of course this great F orum.

Here's a small reminder that information should always be analyzed, regardless of how old it is. This image was published in The Medal Collector, Official publication of the Orders and Medals Society of America, June 1964. Since there were no other specimen available for comparison, this piece was tentatively classified as 1b. We all know nowdays that this is a fairy tail, but this info was undisputed until at least 1968 in this very monthly publication.

KR

Peter

[Mike K]

...My question about "general knowledge" was not related to the actual badge, only the specific production method of drilled through pins...

←

The references I quoted above all SPECIFICALLY illustrate numbered PAB examples on which the rivets are visible from the obverse - they aren't just old references which show any old numbered PAB. I could have added others, but I only mentioned pre-1990 references to avoid any question over more recent good quality fakes. Regardless, the key examples are the veteran acquired examples.

Regards

Mike K

Edited September 3, 2005 by Mike K

[Peter J]

Hi Mike,

I contemplated sending you a pm in order to solve any possible missunderstandings in this thread, but decided to take this opportunity and ventilate another issue as well.

After a few years presence on the WAF, I'm used to intensive debates over various topics. I have to admit that I haven't quite figured out the climate on this Gentlemen's Forum, given the lack of critical comments. Please believe me when I say that I'm not heretic, but I'll persuade the truth if I don't find enough parameters to form an opinion of my own. I hope there will be room for this attitude here as well

Four individuals responded to this thread, three of us had issues with the drilled through rivets. Perhaps this is general knowledge and we are just ignorant. I stated incorrectly that I've only known about this type for year, I actually saw it in IMM 1998, imaged in an article about numbered PAB's.There was no verbal explaination in regards of this specific production method. Well, the same publication stated two issues later that the flat backed, ball pinned Aurich PAB was original. Consequently the reliability in this source is questionable.

Angolia was also mentioned, so I checked it up. I far as I can see there are only a 75 and 25 pictured and I'll strucked by a lightning if there are any rivets coming up on the obverse

Mike, the issue here is not whether this type exists or not, it's not for me to argue about, given my limited knowledge in it. It's the sources that provide me with further knowledge. You have provided me with a couple of more places to look into and that's a good start, thanks for helping out

KR

Peter

[Mike K]

Hi Peter,

Your comments regarding questionable, fantasy and/or reproduction badges in references is very valid. However I don't feel it's valid to write off a whole reference because of the inclusion of one bad item. Trust me, if that were the case no-one would use Angolia's reference at all for the simple inclusion of his Seekampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe (which I've had the "good fortune" to personally handle in the late 80s). That's why I mentioned several unrelated references, in conjunction with direct German veteran acquisitions.

Re angolia, in my edition (Second Printing, Feb 1985, the one with Hans Ulrich Rudels diamonds awards in colour of the front cover), the 100 PAB at the bottom of P89 has the rivets visible from the front.

Although Niemann is a dealer, he features more than one of this type in his catalogue so it may be worth asking him what his experience with direct German veteran acquisitions of this type is.

I've already looked into the pre-45 existence of these badges and formed my own opinion. I'm not trying to be argumentative here and I realise this is a gentleman's forum but it's also a discussion forum and I would feel uncomfortable by being quiet when eye-brow raising comments are made. I don't like seeing a badge sceptically evaluated by apparently uninformed opinions/observations - which to be honest is the way I read post #s 2, 3 and 5.

For the record, I do not own an example of this type (in any grade) however I would if the right badge came along at the right time and at the right price! I have handled them though.

Regards

Mike K

PS: Here's a badge you may want to ask Chris Boonzaire about. He sold it back in 2002 (wish I'd had the spare money to pick it up at the time!);

[Mike K]

Reverse...

[Peter J]

Mike, after all I think we're on the same page here, or at least reading the same book .

KR

Peter

[Jim P]

Hello Mike,

This has turned into a very informative thread.I appreciate your insight into this piece(even though it is not mine).This has opened my eyes to the possibility that these may have existed pre 45.The use of the rivets this way is actually pretty ingenius after you study the appearance of the badge.

Is it known how many companies manufactured this award this way?The reason I ask is,the 50 PAB you have shown and the 25 PAB that started this thread do not appear to be made by the same company.

That aside, the overall fit and finsh of the 25 seems to be lacking,especially when compared to the 50 you have shown.If this piece were offerd to me in my price range I would probably pass for these reasons.

I am not trying to be argumentative.I really want to learn as much as possible,and I only do that by asking questions and making comments.I am willing to accept the possibilty of this manufacturing technique,but I still have issues with the badge in question.

Respectfully,

Jim P

Edited September 5, 2005 by Jim P

[Stogieman]

I agree with Mike on this one, rivets showing are examples of known originals. I prefer the JFS style pieces, I have difficulty with the "GB" style hollow badges as the reproductions are right there, unfortunately. Give me a solid piece any day.

[Mike K]

Hello Mike,

                This has turned into a very informative thread.I appreciate your insight into this piece(even though it is not mine).This has opened my eyes to the possibility that these may have existed pre 45.The use of the rivets this way is actually pretty ingenius after you study the appearance of the  badge.

  Is it known how many companies manufactured this award this way?The reason I ask is,the 50 PAB you have shown and the 25 PAB that started this thread do not appear to be made by the same company.

That aside, the overall fit and finsh of the 25 seems to be lacking,especially when compared to the 50 you have shown.If this piece were offerd to me in my price range I would probably pass for these reasons.

  I am not trying to be argumentative.I really want to learn as much as possible,and I only do that by asking questions and making comments.I am willing to accept the possibilty of this manufacturing technique,but I still have issues with the badge in question.

Respectfully,

  Jim P

←

Hi Jim,

Please note, I wasn't arguing specifically for the badge at the top of the thread being original/genuine, only the type in general! The pics of both the 25 and 50 in this thread aren't great. The 50 also has some wear/deterioration which makes comparison of fine details difficult.

I ceraintly agree with some of your points though and could add that the finish on the wreath looks exceptionally good (but is it correctly plated, or is that actually only basemetal) whereas the tank looks worn and has a strange whitish material in the recesses.

As indicated in my first reply, there are no obvious major problems with the 25 BUT, as Rick has re-iterated, there are very good repros in circulation of this type (and the GB marked semi-hollow examples).

I don't know how many manufacturers produced the numbered Panzer Badges - probably no more than 1/2 dozen and maybe only 3 or 4 in total. How many produced the "through rivet" type is not possible for me to say. I would not be surprised to learn that there was only one maker though.

Regards

Mike K

[Chris Boonzaier]

Thats a blast from the past. I did indeed sell it, it came from a KC winner. it was sold, lost in the mail, and never seen again. Having sent it uninsured for the buyer to look at ... I was out about $500 on what I got back in insurance.....

Ah well, life goes on...

Chris

[kunsho]

May I show you an unquestionable example of the PAB 25 ?

Best regards

Matthias

[kunsho]

...and the reverse..

[kunsho]

...and the makers mark "JFS"...