Luftwaffe Help with Luft/RLM Badge

[Lee Moore]

Hello All,

Does anyone know what this badge is for? I have been told a few different things. Most think it is a badge for RLM workers or civilian employees. I have been told that there are photos of this in wear in one of the Luftwaffe books by published by Bender (I think in one of the 3 volume set). Anyone have any photos or answers as to who would have worn it?

Thanks,

Lee

[Lee Moore]

Rear

[Lee Moore]

3

[J Temple-West]

Hi Lee

I?ve come across these badges before, handled a couple but can find no reference for this type of badge.

Although similar in design to the M1938 lapel badge worn by civilian members of Luftwaffe/armed forces in occupied countries, these badges are (IMO) fantasy pieces based on the civilian retinue badge (below)

and possibly the civilian radio operators badge (below)

Perhaps other members have more information to share.

[Paul R]

It reminds me of the Sea rescue hat badge...

I will have to hit my books when I get home. I have never seen an insignia with an enameled swastica.

[J Temple-West]

It reminds me of the Sea rescue hat badge...

I will have to hit my books when I get home. I have never seen an insignia with an enameled swastica.

Paul..

The only enameled badge I can think of would be the early 'DLV' badge.

And, as a point of interest... The civilian air/sea rescue badge.

[Peter J]

Paul..

The only enameled badge I can think of would be the early 'DLV' badge.

And, as a point of interest... The civilian air/sea rescue badge.

Hi Lee,

You're correct about Bender, there's one pictured in the 1st vol. of Angolia/Schlicht book. The design is identical and in matte-silver, but lacks the enamel on the swastica. Further more it's a straight vertical pin and it measures 3,5cm (wingspan). German Aviation Management Career Personal (Abzeichen f?r in den deutschen Luftfahrtbetrieben besch?ftigte Personen). As stated, it could be worn by all RLM personell.

cheers

Peter

[Paul R]

Thanks for posting those John! I really like that Air Rescue hat badge!!! One day...

I have seen that first set... somewhere... I will check my books when I get home./

[nesredep]

Hi

Look at the book:Headgear of Hitler`s Germany,Vol.1:Heer,Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.By Jill Halcomb and Wilhelm P.B.R. Saris with Otto Spronk.1st EDITION !989.Page 333 to335.

Regards

Nesredep

[Lee Moore]

Thank You to all who have responded.

I agree Paul that it is very much like, and probably trying to be, the civilian stick pin that you posted. The wings are very similar, but the swastika on the pin is placed lower. I have seen one stick pin that had the swastika placed more central like the badge I posted. It was a stamped oval and had the letters ?DL? above the wings and a ?W? below. I have limited knowledge and references of aviation related civil organizations, but I could not find any contemporary photos, with the references I have, of the badge I posted in wear. Paul, when you say that you have seen and handled these in the past, have they been around for awhile? Do you remember when they first started to appear?

I purchased this from a dealer about a year ago and he has a guarantee of originality. In fairness to him, he did not say he knew what it was and did post it on WAF for opinions and identification with little result in identification. I realize that an item can be assessed as original by accepted manufacturing characteristics, materials and consistent traits. Known reproductions can also be assessed through similar means, but how do you prove a fantasy piece? It is like proving a negative. I would like to give him somewhat of a definitive conclusion if I decide to return it. As I can find no known reference book with this included, and apparently none are published/shown in wear with contemporary photos, I am becoming more convinced that these are not of pre-1945 manufacture.

Anyone have any more thoughts or information?

Thanks Again to all,

Lee

[J Temple-West]

Nesredep has indeed come up with a reference for this badge?good eye, Nes!

Page 71, vol 1 ?Uniforms & Traditions of the Luftwaffe? by Angolia & Schlicht shows a badge of similar design attributed to German Aviation Management Career Personal (Abzeichen f?r in den deutschen Luftfahrtbetrieben besch?ftigte Personen) which goes to prove that one should

never dismiss a piece until all avenues of research are exhausted.

The picture is very small making comparison difficult. Differences, yes? but does show us that the insignia existed which gives us something to work with.

As a starting point: Lee, we are given a wingspan measurement of 3.5cm. How does this compare to your badge?

[Peter J]

"Although similar in design to the M1938 lapel badge worn by civilian members of Luftwaffe/armed forces in occupied countries, these badges are (IMO) fantasy pieces based on the civilian retinue badge (below)"

Hi John,

I have one comment about this badge and it's connection to occupied territories. This was valid for the Wehrmachtgefolge-badge, worn exclusively during the years of war and outside Germany, also for the civilian badge during that period, as well as certain duties within the borders of the Reich. However the civil badge was also a domestic badge in the pre-war years.

Unfortunately I have only the 1st volume of LW, but all three of the Heer. They offer a good account for the corresponding Heer badge and I would assume the badges of both branches were instituted at the same date (please correct me if I'm wrong). The Heer badge for civilian workers in silver was instituted 30 April 1936. The gold version was for 25 years service. However the gold version was discontinued in 1938 when the Treuedienstehrenzeichen was introduced. Consequently I find it difficult to believe the LW version is a M1938, based on my formentioned assumption.

cheers

Peter

[Lee Moore]

Thank You Nesredep. I misunderstood your post and thought you were talking about the Air Sea Rescue badge and did not reply.

John, it measures approx 55mm across if I am reading my ruler correctly (just a touch over 2&1/8?). Is the 3.5cm from the Angolia reference or the one that Nesredep cited?

Thanks,

Lee

[nesredep]

Thank You Nesredep. I misunderstood your post and thought you were talking about the Air Sea Rescue badge and did not reply.

John, it measures approx 55mm across if I am reading my ruler correctly (just a touch over 2&1/8?). Is the 3.5cm from the Angolia reference or the one that Nesredep cited?

Thanks,

Lee

Hi

Lee

Ok.

Regards

Nesredep

[J Temple-West]

"Consequently I find it difficult to believe the LW version is a M1938, based on my formentioned assumption."

Peter,

I wish I had answer for you but there is a marked lack of information on the various civilian organizations attached to the Luftwaffe. A lot of the pre-war organizations were reclassified, amalgamated or disbanded, new units formed etc, as was the case for most military/civilian/political organizations of the time.

I can only think that the badge in question was instituted in 1938 as the insigne for uniformed personnel of a newly formed civilian branch of the Luftwaffe who served in occupied countries at the time of the Austrian ?Anschluss? and subsequent entry into Sudetenland.

Of course, there is a difference between the terms ?civilian members? & ?civilian personnel? which may explain the use of a general insigne for one group and designated insignia for the others.

"Is the 3.5cm from the Angolia reference or the one that Nesredep cited?"

Lee,

The measurement come from the 'Angolia' reference.

[Paul R]

"Consequently I find it difficult to believe the LW version is a M1938, based on my formentioned assumption."

Peter,

I wish I had answer for you but there is a marked lack of information on the various civilian organizations attached to the Luftwaffe. A lot of the pre-war organizations were reclassified, amalgamated or disbanded, new units formed etc, as was the case for most military/civilian/political organizations of the time.

I can only think that the badge in question was instituted in 1938 as the insigne for uniformed personnel of a newly formed civilian branch of the Luftwaffe who served in occupied countries at the time of the Austrian ?Anschluss? and subsequent entry into Sudetenland.

Of course, there is a difference between the terms ?civilian members? & ?civilian personnel? which may explain the use of a general insigne for one group and designated insignia for the others.

"Is the 3.5cm from the Angolia reference or the one that Nesredep cited?"

Lee,

The measurement come from the 'Angolia' reference.

Well put John... I have not been able to find anything more either.

[Peter J]

John, that's of course one possibility. I thought perhaps some info could be found in vol.2 or 3 in Angolia's LW book, similar to the info presented in his 2nd vol. of the Heer. I started a thread on the subject of these badges, intrigued by the contraditctive info presented in various publications. After additional book purchases, I realize some of my assumptions were incorrect: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20510

It's easy to get lost in all these dates and badges. As you'll notice in that thread, a reference was provided from Bender's LW book regarding the introduction of this badge i.e. Nov. 1937. However he claims it was worn exclusively by paid employees of the RLM, which I find hard to believe. The corresponding Heer badge, which was introduced in 1936, was for wear on civilian clothes. The regulation for wear on and off duty in occupied countries did not come into effect until 1 Okt. 1941. The same order of that date required all civilian members of the Wehrmacht to wear the newly introduced badge for "Wehrmachtgefolge", provided they were not alloted a uniform or had to wear the civilian badge. I guess there is always new info to be found, but for the time being, I believe I stick to the Heer-scenario regarding the LW badges, due to the following:

The collective term "Gefolkschaftsmitgleider" was used by all three branches from 1935. If the Heer introduced it's badge in 1936, I see no reason why LW had to wait another two years.

Nor do I find it plausible that the civil badge was introduced in conjunction with the Anschluss in March 1938. The gold version is supposed to be for 25 years faithful service, but the Treue Dienst Ehrenzeichen was instituted in Jan. 1938!

Additional input is greatly appreciated

cheers

Peter

[nesredep]

Hi Lee

I?ve come across these badges before, handled a couple but can find no reference for this type of badge.

Although similar in design to the M1938 lapel badge worn by civilian members of Luftwaffe/armed forces in occupied countries, these badges are (IMO) fantasy pieces based on the civilian retinue badge (below)

and possibly the civilian radio operators badge (below)

Perhaps other members have more information to share.

Hi

Look at the book:FORMANS`S Guide to the Third Reich German Awards And Their Values. 3 EDITION,Page 290 to 291.

Best Regards

Nesredep