Since I'm Amongst 'Gentlemen'

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I'm seriously considering having the PLM and EK1 and medal bars and breast stars engraved with my grandfather's name.

Seeing an unattributed PlM sent shivers up my spine that someday my grandfather's awards might be seperated and his identity lost with them.

All comments welcomed. This is a rather big step.

[David Gregory]

Brian,

If the items now in your care are not broken or missing, I don't believe they should be changed or altered in any way.

When absolutely necessary, I only ever advocate moderate cleaning and/or restoration by adding authentic period pieces to replace missing parts of a given medal bar or group.

While I appreciate your wish to preserve his legacy, I am sure there are better ways to do this than physically altering the artefacts you have come to own. Careful documentation by photographing, weighing and measuring the items you have inherited should be sufficient.

They seem to have withstood the ravages of history more or less untouched until now and I think they will do quite well for another few hundred years if looked after carefully.

Any of the changes or alterations you suggest above probably cannot be reversed. Whoever becomes the next custodian of these items will not be able to undo anything you do to them.

For the sake of posterity, if for no other reason, I would simply document them carefully and make sure nothing untoward happens to them.

/David

[Stogieman]

Hi Brian, I'd have to agree, I would not engrave the pieces at all.

[joe campbell]

david's points are well stated and well taken...

and your desire to pursue this is very understandable.

i think your interest is what preserves them as much as anything.

i also think that discussion with the potential custodians after

you is very important, up to and including a codicile in your will.

leave 'em be.

JMHO

joe

Edited September 2, 2005 by joe campbell

[Guest Rick Research]

Anything not of the period is

DAMAGE

desecration

ruination

abomination

et cetera

Repent! Repent!

Once something is NOT original... it can never be original again.

Think of all the perfectly good pieces that have been destroyed because some eBay scum decides to engrave SS or whatever "attribution" on to kick up the price.

Though obviously not your intention, the result would be exactly the same.

Also, shudders running up and down my body, even if you DID commit such an unbearable act of sacrilege, that still would not prevent some Future Grandchild from selling off the "junk" one piece at a time, anyway.

It is the CARETAKER who is essential to preservation.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I know I know I've thought all those things. It's just what if one of the grandchildren breaks it up. Obviously he/she doesn't care and the legacy is lost. I see an unattributed PlM like the one on WAF and it really bothers me. I can photograph the blazes out of it but that doesn't stop the photos from seperating from the piece. A simple v.Etzel on the bottom arm of the PlM? An embroidered tag on the medal bars probably not necessary as someone like Rick will HOPEFULLY always be around to carry on the ID. But the Breast stars. EK1's... I see an EK1 and it makes me sick to see ANY of them without attribution.

[Guest Rick Research]

You eldest is what, 8? "Start Now-- Worry Ahead!"

There IS a solution:

Wrap everything up and mail to

Ricky's Repository

Downstream But Uphill From The Dam

Above The Waterline, No Tornadoes Since '55

Central New England

I'm 48, but I'm a "young" 48, so I figure... at least another 30 good years left.

Alternatively, you could pay to have an EXTREMELY good Curse laid on them, so anyone who broke up the group would

really really really

be sorry.

You could even invent imaginary collateral relatives NOW, while the kids are too young to know better, and get the "story" down straight about Uncle Wilhelm, whose hair all grew inward until eventually he suffocated himself...

and all because he sold the ribbon bars.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I like the curse. I could write it up, sign it and stick copies in each of the museum preservation boxes with inert backing material. I've gone to way too much effort have this all lost to the winds, as have you, with all the info you and Glenn and others have provided. But just think, would the guy who just bought that PlM off the WAF be more or less thrilled to know to whom it belonged? I'm guessing a name on it would have been a good thing. And 200 years from now when someone's looking at that PlM and they see a name on it, I seriously doubt they'll think it's destroyed. But maybe the curse would work...

[Ulsterman]

I disagree with the others. I would micro-engrave his initials and the date on an inner core rim. Had he done so it would have been part of history.

There will come a time when the medals will be lost or separated. Then their connection with your ancestor will be broken.

He will be forgotten. The medals will be treasured-but more so if forever identified.

It's all thats' left of him-besides you and the family.

[Les]

I run with the group on this one.

There is one way I've heard to deter theft, and keep things together if you want to do something that is completely non-visual, and will serve as a real life "curse".

Irradiation with Strontium 90, or any of the really heavy duty radioactive beta emitters. On the "bright side" pun intended, they'll glow in the dark and that will help cut down on electric bills. Also, you can bet that most people will want to keep the items in a special custom made lead lined case and all of the items as a group. If you keep the dosage and absorption rate the same so that all the items are equally radioactive, they can be geiger counter checked to seperate from other like pieces even if the documents or associations are broken up..

Now...that was meant as humor guys...

Les

[Ralph A]

I'll swim against the current, and provide a counterpoint.

I disagree with the "desecration" and "damage" statements. The pieces are to you heirlooms first, and collectibles/acquisitions second. You're the direct descendant, so anything you do to the pieces (within reason) seems to me to be instead part of their history.

But given your concern, consider having them engraved on a minuscule level; lazer engraved in a discreet place - say, the side of an arm. Just a tiny script to "perzonalize" the pieces, invisible to the naked eye.

Like the One Ring.

That being said, I would not do anything to them, were they mine. I think your reason to so do is not good; though your concern has some merit.

[landsknechte]

I run with the group on this one.

There is one way I've heard to deter theft, and keep things together if you want to do something that is completely non-visual, and will serve as a real life "curse".

Irradiation with Strontium 90, or any of the really heavy duty radioactive beta emitters. On the "bright side" pun intended, they'll glow in the dark and that will help cut down on electric bills. Also, you can bet that most people will want to keep the items in a special custom made lead lined case and all of the items as a group. If you keep the dosage and absorption rate the same so that all the items are equally radioactive, they can be geiger counter checked to seperate from other like pieces even if the documents or associations are broken up..

Now...that was meant as humor guys...

Les

←

Of course, I can see someone arguing that it must really be a fake, since it glows without a blacklight...

--Chris

[Paul C]

An interesting idea. While I agree that engraving on the medals is not the way to go, I understand your desire to preserve your families legacy. One solution is to use a ink that is detectable under ultraviolet light only. Another solution, if you are worried about the items being sold and broken up is to will to collection to a museam in Germany.

[Gerd Becker]

Another solution, if you are worried about the items being sold and broken up is to will to collection to a museam in Germany.

←

I know one

Seriously, i would not engrave the pieces. What if you make up a very nice display with everything behind glass and make the history of the group and your efforts to research it visible somehow, maybe with an inscripted plate. So, if someone is intended to sell one or more pieces, he will definately be aware, what he is doing there and hopefully will think about it twice.

Gerd

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I disagree with the others. I would micro-engrave his initials and the date on an inner core rim. Had he done so it would have been part of history.

There will come a time when the medals will be lost or separated. Then their connection with your ancestor will be broken.

He will be forgotten. The medals will be treasured-but more so if forever identified.

It's all thats' left of him-besides you and the family.

←

Yes, this was where I was leaning also.

I wouldn't touch the medal bars. I think they are safely "His".

Micro engraving on a lower arm of the PlM would be nearly invisible...

[Ulsterman]

Again:

Microengraving.....

If it is stolen-then there is proof that it's really yours, even after 40 years loss. A plate glass frame is instantly smashed by a thief. Even if you see it in a catalogue 10 years later-good luck trying to prove it is yours. The burden of proof is on you (see McSwiggens' post below on 'massive theft').

A museum ultimately operates to keep itself alive. It will sell the medal if it needs the money to pay for new computers, a bigger salary for its staff, a building refurbishment, new drapes, printing, a reception, a different piece (like a painting the Director likes better) etc. etc.... Things like this happen all the time-even in Germany. I buy from museums. I am on the boards of 2 museums. I can assure you they sell things-lots of things-that many people thought they were donating forever in memory of their loved ones. Sometimes they do it within a year of acquiring the donated item.

If it's washed away by a flood-or something-then when it's dug up many years later, your children will have the piece itself-a vital link of family history, who and what you are.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Ulsterman

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Yes, as wonderful as a museum would be if you believe they keep everything and or even would display it would then be the ultimate expression of respect for my grandfather. But, I too know better. An uncle of my wife's collected Indian pottery and artifacts all his life in Oregon. A huge collection. His sister gave it to the museum. They promptly sold it ALL. Nor is it my intent to give it to a museum and have them stick it in a drawer and some 'custodian' switch the piece with a fake. This too happens too frequently. For now, the Bank's safe deposit box is where it's been for several years here and before that in a safe deposit box in New York. I am all too happy to view my jpg's rather than the handle any of it. So they are ALL safe even from me and my ravaging ruination by a discreet vEtzel on the lower arm...

[JamesM]

Don?t engrave the pieces, you?ve just altered it, for the worse, if you do.

If a family member is going to sell the pieces and split up the group, marking the pieces won?t make a bit of difference. They?ll be sold none the less.

If you ?LOAN? the items to a museum, they ?can?t? sell the pieces as they are still yours! Mind you, trying to get the pieces back from them after the person who loaned the items has died, is extremely hard, if not impossible. That has to be laid out in the paperwork when the museum takes them on!! Also, the family can see the items anytime they want and there is no bickering about who should have sole possession of them!

Cheers,

James

[Ulsterman]

Museums have been known to sell items on permanent loan. They argue that the "loan" was a de facto gift. They wait for the original donors to die off, but they do it. They want the money.

By the way-by microengraving I mean engraving of @ 1-2 mm in height (or less). This is done now in museums and major jewel, coin & silver collections with lasers. It doesn't cost much either.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Ulsterman

[Biro]

Brian

Wouldn't take my word for it huh?

I don't have any issue with this at all.

If it was anyone - ANYONE - else on the planet attempting to do this to a PLM, I would have a freakin fit.

But the way I look at it, the ONE SINGLE person who could justfiably do this to these items is you - you are the direct decendant and let's face it... it would only be a 'modern engraving' for perhaps the next 50 years.

In another 200 years, the fact that a (by then distant) decendant had these items engraved will merely cement the mystique these incredible family pieces already have.

Because - and only because - you are family, no harm done IMO...

Marshall

[Guest Rick Research]

Anything not done BY THE ORIGINAL OWNER which permanently and irreversibly alters the original condition in a non-repair (reattaching broken off pieces, OK) or non permanent (missing a loose ribbon-- replace it, OK) way ruins it

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2219

What is that formerly perfectly good 1914 EK1 "worth" now? It is now nothing but a JUNKER to use as display on a tunic. I personally wouldn't want it at all, EVER. MY displays are ORIGINAL.

1) Engraving will NOT keep pieces together if a future heir sells items separately, so NO "protection." NOTHING can "protect" against a heir who doesn't care.

2) I would not alter pieces because of fears of theoretical future theft (like the entire collection in Germany in the other thread) because detailed scans ARE possible for exact "finger print" identifications, should that arise. Engraving items will not keep burglars from stealing them, so no "protection." It makes NO sense to me to damage something undamaged to aid in hypothetical future recovery.

[Les]

Anything not done BY THE ORIGINAL OWNER which permanently and irreversibly alters the original condition in a non-repair (reattaching broken off pieces, OK) or non permanent (missing a loose ribbon-- replace it, OK) way ruins it

Rick, I'll sing Amen from the choir, to the Bishop on this comment.

Marshall, there are several other PlM's still in "the family." If memory serves me correctly, perhaps one of the most famous of recipients is/was Erwin Rommel, and that item although in a safe place, is his son's, and will go to his family in turn. There are a few others, but if Manfred Rommel decided to mico-engrave his father's name on that PlM.... try to imagine what would ensue once word got out.

Let's consider that engraving has been around long before PlM's or many other medal designs were even sketched on a piece of paper. Brian's grandfather if -he- wanted to, could have found an engraver and personally arranged to have his name added. He obviously chose not to, and as Rick succintly puts the matter, if it wasn't done by the original owner/recipient, and can't be undone, the piece has been changed forever.

Brian might be toying with the idea. Imagine for a moment, he does in reverance of his grandfather's memory. However, Brian's son or grandson or even a later family member might have very different thoughts on a family member who decided to add something extra to the pieces... Posterity has the option of judging what -we- do, it's quite possible that an act one ancestor did for another might be viewed by later generations as an outrage.

All of ous would like to hold onto what our ancestors gave us. However on a very tangental note, there is something all of us do carry with us our entire lives...our DNA, which was given to us by them and some of their inherited DNA resides within us on a "micro-level." That doesn't mean I'd suggest getting an ancestors' name tatooed on my backside, or being worried about a family member giving away DNA to some lady he happens to meet.....

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

If it was anyone - ANYONE - else on the planet attempting to do this to a PLM, I would have a freakin fit.

But the way I look at it, the ONE SINGLE person who could justfiably do this to these items is you - you are the direct decendant and let's face it... it would only be a 'modern engraving' for perhaps the next 50 years.?

In another 200 years, the fact that a (by then distant) decendant had these items engraved will merely cement the mystique these incredible family pieces already have.

Because - and only because - you are family, no harm done IMO...

Marshall

←

I'm leaving this to the General's Daughter. If she says it's a go it's a go on the PlM. And if this ruins the piece for "collectors", I am not dismayed.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Stogieman]

I don't know. I don't think it's a good idea and I think to even be assuming the grouping will be scattered to the wind is a pretty sad state of affairs. I've owned a number of pieces that were attributed and I have never considered altering them in anyway. I think doing this will seriously affect any "collector value" rather severely, but I suppose only time will tell that.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Rick, collector value is not even on the paper for pluses and minuses for me. It's non-existent. If anything at all, that could be a plus.