Republic of Ireland Irish 1916-20

[Ceallach]

Mr. Murphy:

Perchance could you list the 88 original numbered medals?

Do you have names for the other officially named Tan war medals at all?

Lastly, I have always wondered what exactly one did to receive a noncom IRA medal? Can you give us any ideas?

Ta,

In view of the recently demonstrated propensity of scammers to drag heritage through the gutter, may it be a long day before a list of the named 1916/1921 Service Medals be ever made public.

An Ceallach

[Ceallach]

Gentlemen,

.... in fact only 88 of the 403 are true "posthumous" awards. The true posthumous awards are numbered 1 to 88 and the names are in alphabetic order. Thise numbered from 89 onwards are in order of the application being processed. .....

Regards,

Paul L Murphy

Paul,

The initial batch in alphabetic order was to and including #86. There are a couple of " true posthumous awards" in the three digit range.

You are to be commended for your initial published research in this area and I for one am thankful for the numismatic path you ploughed.

An Ceallach

[Paul L Murphy]

Ceallach,

Many thanks for your comments. I am aware that my research is not perfect and apprecaite the corrections. There are generally recognised to be 88 1916 casualties, not including people who later died of wounds. I have medal number 89 (and a few others) and it is to a non casualty who died prior to 1941. Hence my assumption that the first 88 medals were all proper posthumous awards.

Cheers,

Paul

[ardmhacha]

I wrote the ebay guides concerning these medals. They are being turned out in Australia. I got a couple to compere to my originals and they are good, very good !

Also watch out for copies of Irish Volunteer cap badges. They are sold in Dublin as copies, sadly some guys buy them and sell them on as originals. Spoke to a collector in England who paid out hundreds for one.

As to Tom's 1916 medal. It's in the hands of one of the finest collectors of that period. And he's Irish.

[Paul L Murphy]

All of the 1916 period insignia, cap badges etc. have been copied by a certain individual in Dublin. He sells them as copies but refuses to stamp them as such, hence they get passed on to the unsuspecting.

[ardmhacha]

Paul we can watch out for them in auctions in years to come. Very few originals ever appear besides the Dublin Brigade. There are also reproduction belt buckles on the market too. There were items at the last auction in Dublin that I have doubts about.

[Ulsterman]

Welcome Ardm:

Interesting attachment.

Did you see the Volunteers jacket found in 2001 in a chimney?

[ardmhacha]

Hi Ulsterman

Like any uniform or tunic, you have to be so careful. Nice when an old sleeper turns up. Sadly all the old houses have been knocked down and the days of a builder finding one in the roofspace is over. Now in saying that a friend who is a builder found a lovely U.V.F. swagger stick recently and gave it to me.

I think anything relating to the troubles will become the collectables of the future. A friend of mine who is a dealer in England told me recently that the demand for Irish related items from the seventies is rising, there are so many ex servicemen looking items relating to the conflict that they served in.

My own collection now reflects this.

Best wishes

[Ceallach]

Paul,

The initial batch in alphabetic order was to and including #86. There are a couple of " true posthumous awards" in the three digit range.

An Ceallach

My apologies - should read ....."to and including #83"

An Ceallach

[irishmedals]

Dear Gentlemen,

It is a real shame the winning bidder from a recent Whytes auction in Dublin has decided to split the entire collection belonging to Vol. Daniel Tynan http://www.whytes.ie/4ImageDisplay.asp?AUC...&IMAGE=0981. I know 2 other bidders at that auction who would have cherished that collection and probably lent it to a museum for everyone to view and appreciate. It was one of the best grouping of medals and associated memorobilia belonging to a 1916 and War of Independence veteran i have ever seen. I think it sold for ?25,000 at Whytes and i guess the seller is trying to get some sort of profit afer his ebay auctions. The 1916 medal can be seen here: and the rest is on auction if you search or check the sellers other items. I appreciate the seller can do as he wishes with everything as he bought them and they belong to him, its just a shame it is being seperated and not sold as a complete lot.

It is my own personal point of view that this collection should be kept together, not split and sold as seperate lots. If this is allowed to be done the Daniel Tynan collection will NEVER be together again which is extremely sad.

The note at the end of the listing discription there is a copy and paste of the Whytes catalogue saying "A marvellous archive of immense interest to collectors of this period" - pity the seller doesn't think that way.

I am sure Vol Daniel Tynan is turning in his grave at the thought of his collection being split and sent all over the world.

[Irish1916]

Gentlemen

As an under bidder at this auction I was disappointed not to add this fantastic and complete collection to my own. I spoke afterwards with the winning bidder (who was unknown to me) and he indicated he may sell off some of the minor items individually but he was keeping the main (medal) set himself.

Why is he breaking the medals up now?

They did not sell as a full set on ebay recently as the main collectors where probably all represented at the auction, had reached there maximum mid, and thus knew his ebay reserve must be about ?24,000 to make him a profit after Whyte's charges.

Did he think that someone new would appear on ebay and buy the set (less some of its items) for a value higher than what he paid plus commission?

Or did he plan to break it up and try to make a profit from the start.

This would introduce speculative bidding at the highest price level of 1916 collector's memorabilia in order to profit off those same collectors and at a loss to the medals recipient memories.

I do not disapprove of buying and selling these items as no one would be able to join this hobby otherwise; however I do not approve of breaking up such a medal set.

Most of us spend time and energy trying to put pieces of the jig saw that is 1916 memorabilia together as opposed to scattering them on the four winds.

[Ed_Haynes]

I am not usually a believer in capital punishment, but for a crime such as this, only execution seems an appropriate punishment. That someone, driven by massive amounts of mixed greed and ignorance, would be willing to perform this historical desecration amazes me. And, no, this is not the seller's property to do with as he wishes, it is Tynan's group (or was until it was torn asunder) and any collector would know that the First Commandment is to keep groups together. This is a massive tragedy, but the only way to prevent it would be to further enrich the scum who has broken the group with the sole aim of getting rich. I despair of humanity.

And the beloved-of-some eBay merely encourages this criminal act. No reputable dealer or auction house these days would so split a group of such great historical importance.

[Ulsterman]

who is the seller? I'd like to avoid him and his wares in the future.

[Paul L Murphy]

This is utter stupidity and disregard for history on the highest scale. Words fail me. He has turned a valuable and historical group of items into a number of anonymous pieces from which the historical importance and unique nature has been stripped. Hopefully he will make a loss on this and it will keep him away from such endevors in future.

[Kev in Deva]

This shows the distinction between those genuinely interested in their country's history

and a person driven by the desire just to make money.

Unfortunately for the history buffs, as the items now belong to him, he can choose to do what he wants with them,

as he is not breaking any law per se

Sad day for Old Ireland.

Kevin in Deva.

[tynesideirish]

This has made me so angry. I can hardly write! What motivated this man to buy this grouping is beyond me. I can't see how he can even recoup the auction money by splitting. Everyone knows a known group is worth more than the sum of the parts. Nevermind how selfish this is mad . Wish I was rich, I'd buy them all and then send someone around for a word!

Maybe he had a relative killed by Vol Tynan and this is his expensive last laugh? Nothing else , even greed makes sense.

Edited January 8, 2008 by tynesideirish

[Ulsterman]

Can anyone in Eire call the Irish Times and tell them about this? The angle of British antique dealer destroys Irish history would go down well-the piece practically writes itself really. Maybe we can stop this twit from destroying this groups integrity?

I'm sure the people I know in Parnell Square would also be outraged.

[Paul L Murphy]

Can anyone in Eire call the Irish Times and tell them about this? The angle of British antique dealer destroys Irish history would go down well-the piece practically writes itself really. Maybe we can stop this twit from destroying this groups integrity?

I'm sure the people I know in Parnell Square would also be outraged.

Are you sure he is English ? He may only be residing in England ?

[Ed_Haynes]

Despite what some posts have asserted, outrage here has nothing to do with nationalism or politics. This -- like this forum -- is (and muist remain) neutral toward such atavistic things.

However, engaging the press, and making e$cam aware that this is happening, may have interesting results. At least it could be fun. Drag all the scum through the public muck!

[Guest Rick Research]

If ever I had doubts that the world was NOT mad, this tale of someone with 25,000 Euros spending that sort of money in order to RE-SELL the shattered bits and pieces on

eBay

provides the final and irrefutable proof that Charles Darwin was wrong.

[Ed_Haynes]

Righty, Rick, our species is f f****d. (But, then, you haven't met my students in SC, have you?) All glory to the cockroaches! Inheritors of Terra, and they're welcome to what we've left of Her.

Makes ya wanna weep, or drink, or both . . . oh, too Irish?

[Irish1916]

Are you sure he is English ? He may only be residing in England ?

I understand he is in "Ireland" not "Longwood England" as it says on ebay

I think he uses an English address on ebay in order to list in Sterling and not Euro

[Ed_Haynes]

The press, the press, the press. Without delay!!

They'll gut him?

[Paul L Murphy]

The press, the press, the press. Without delay!!

They'll gut him?

The problem is that the press can be a very blunt instrument and they could end up gutting all collectors (ourselves included) in the process. The last thing we want is successfull pressure to prevent the sale of Irish medals a la some other misguided legal jurisdictions around the world. Joe Public will not care about the subtleties and will tar us all with the same brush. I think naming and shaming within the collecting community would be more effective.

However I have to agree with Ricky on this one, things like this make you lose you faith in Darwin from time to time !

[Ed_Haynes]

Good point Paul.

While I do not collect Irish medals -- though I have had fantasies and dreams and temptations and a group like this -- I am not entirely sure it would be a bad trade to swap a cessation oif idiot-scum-criminal splitting in a case like this for a not-outside-Ireland stupid law.

Nevertheless, I weep, I weep.