Soviet Soviet State Security Grouping

[Bill Dienna]

A fascinating group, at least to me....

Edited January 16, 2008 by Bill Dienna

[Bill Dienna]

I thought that thiswas an interesting little grouping. It consists of a Defense of Leningrad medal, with the large award document dated 1943. There is a Victory Over Germany medal with the document from 1946. Additionally, there is a Medal for Military Merit award book for a medal in the 3 million range. The bok itself lacks a photo, but bears the stamp that legitimizes it without the photograph. The medal itself is unnumbered. What I found to be particularly interesting is the early german silver medal for 20 Years of Irreproachable Service in the KGB, with an award card from 1958 that carries only the first class medal. This would seem to indicate that, as of 1958, this officer had already served 20 years in the Soviet State Security apparatus, placing his entry at around 1937 or 1938. Those would have been interesting years, to say the least, to have been in the NKVD / MGB / KGB.

I will try to get some close-ups of the award document stamps, but I'm really photographically challenged when it comes to taking well-lit, in-focus close-up photos, and unfortunately I lack a scanner.

[Bill Dienna]

***

[matteti]

***

Hello Bill,

It's an interesting grouping of documents, but in my opinion, nothing proves the medals belongs to the docs. The fact that the combat service medal is unnumbered while it should be in the 3 million range already show that something happened there.

And it's a bit surprising that he was only a major in 1958 if he really had 20+ years of service.. I thought that those that saw the GPW from the beginning to the end rose up pretty fast in the hierarchy.. but I guess that's not always the case.

Regards.

Edited January 16, 2008 by matteti

[Ferdinand]

So, the unnumbered MMM doesn't belong to the group, but replaces a numbered MMM, probably for 10 years of service around 1948... That means our Major should have received a Red Star and accompanying Order Booklet around 1953... And the group also misses some jubilee medals... But still, an interesting little group!

[Paul R]

An interesting little group!

I agree. State Security Groupings are very rare in themselves. If you have the MMM number, it would not hurt to have it researched so that you may get a little information on the Man!

[Guest Rick Research]

Rank and length of service have nothing to do with each other in the KGB. My Grebennik and Drutsky Technical Senior Lieutenants never advanced after the war, either. And it took my Comrade Noga over 20 years to reach 2 star Lieutenant. It was a function of what they were DOING.

The Victory Over Germany stamp/issuing authority may tell us that.

A State Security Major was an important guy!

Of the 5 State Security groups I've had (still have 4) only Grebennik's (from 1938 Red Banner to 1991 Kiev jubilee badge) was anywhere near complete. I suspect the reason why we are usually missing paperwork on the common jubilee awards is because

completely contrary to expectation, what with the military having gone over to Feldpost number unit stamps, KGB are often found with the ACTUAL UNIT stamps. (I guess they never dreamed that anybody else would ever be looking at THEIR papers!)

This one, for instance, on a 1958 jubilee to KGB Lt Col Grinenko shows that he was attached to the Lvov Railways KGB security detail:

So I suspect the "routine stuff" was probably deliberately thrown away rather than breach security.

[matteti]

Thanks for explanation about the rank difference between army and KGB Rick. I didn't consider that and what you said totally makes sense.

[Bill Dienna]

It's an interesting grouping of documents, but in my opinion, nothing proves the medals belongs to the docs.

Well, of course.

This is the case with every Soviet group that involves awards other than numbered orders. It is also the case with every Imperial German group, Third Reich group, and any American group that involves unnumbered campaign medals or unnamed decorations, which pretty much means most groups after 1941, unless posthumous.

Unfortunately, it is probably true that, in the absence of some kind of iron-clad documentation, such as a "These are all of my medals" note from a recipient, most groups from countries that did not name or number their decorations will always be at issue.

It reminds me of a cased Knights Cross and Oak Leaves group that at one time was in the posession of Steve Wolfe and Neil Hardin. Whoever aquired it from the German veteran had him sign, in pen, the inside of the lids of the cases for his KC and OL in an attempt to provide provenance.

Such are the hurdles in collecting militaria.

[Ed_Haynes]

However, you yourself have said ". . . there is a Medal for Military Merit award book for a medal in the 3 million range." As the medal with this "group" is unnumbered, this seems clearly to indicate that there has been some "restoration" (to use a very delicate word).

[Bill Dienna]

However, you yourself have said ". . . there is a Medal for Military Merit award book for a medal in the 3 million range." As the medal with this "group" is unnumbered, this seems clearly to indicate that there has been some "restoration" (to use a very delicate word).

Wow.

Now I remember why I no longer post items on forums.

It was soooo obvious to me that the Military Merit medal, as unnumbered, was added by someone at some point that I didn't even bother to mention it. I posted this grouping because of that aspect of it that followed my statement "What I find interesting about this group....".

To say that the MMM was added, or that there is no way to guarantee that other medals absolutely came with the documents is a little like saying "Hmmmm...this car has no engine. Someone must have removed it."

I guess I just think differently. When I posted this I wasn't focused on the obvious fact that the MMM medal was clearly not the awarded example; I wasn't concentrating on the fact that this Major might have been given a Red Star, or that jubille medals might have been awarded. What struck me about this assemblage was that this was an officer who apparently defended Leningrad as a member of State Security and served in that capacity such that, almost as soon as the KGB Irreproachable Service Medal was authorized...BAM, he gets a twenty year award. And the KGB award in 1958 thereby enlightens us as to what he was doing for the prior two decades. The card also indicated that there was no "catch-up" award of the second and third class medal.

Well, adios gentlemen.

[Guest Rick Research]

I'd still like to see the entry page for the MMM-- possibly establishing whether that was a "for something" or long service award and the issuing authority on his Victory Over Germany.

I've been around long enough to know that there is virtually never such a thing as a "complete" KGB group, and what is missing is often quite absurdly arbitrary. We get as many pieces as we can.

20+ years of service, Technical Senior Lieutenant Drutsky of the Ukrainian branch of the KGB =

<a href="http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1958&hl=Drutsky" target="_blank">http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1958&hl=Drutsky</a>

Drutsky's LOOSE medals contain serial numbered awards that do match-- so why assume that the unnumbered ones aren't his? I'd rather err on the sentimental side of caution and hope that such awards did come from him--and in other groups like his.

the oldest Lieutenant in the KGB, Comrade Noga =

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24862

nothing but paperwork, in his case, alas.

Lieutenant Colonel Grinenko's group =

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24864&hl=

[Wild Card]

Well, of course.

This is the case with every Soviet group that involves awards other than numbered orders. It is also the case with every Imperial German group, Third Reich group, and any American group that involves unnumbered campaign medals or unnamed decorations, which pretty much means most groups after 1941, unless posthumous.

Unfortunately, it is probably true that, in the absence of some kind of iron-clad documentation, such as a "These are all of my medals" note from a recipient, most groups from countries that did not name or number their decorations will always be at issue.

It reminds me of a cased Knights Cross and Oak Leaves group that at one time was in the posession of Steve Wolfe and Neil Hardin. Whoever aquired it from the German veteran had him sign, in pen, the inside of the lids of the cases for his KC and OL in an attempt to provide provenance.

Such are the hurdles in collecting militaria.

Gentlemen,

With regard to the issue of provenance, I would like to pass on a story which I hope you will find interesting.

The first important piece I bought was a cased Prussian Crown Order, 3rd class, with ?it?s? award document to a Major, signed by Kaiser Wilhelm and dated in 1907. Under the pad in the case was a little card describing the cross (name, size, weight, etc.) which had the lower right hand corner cut out. I bought it back in 1976 and paid, what for me back then was a lot of money; but I bought it from a reputable dealer so...

Many years later, after my circle of friends and acquaintances in the medal world had grown, I suddenly realized that the handwriting on that little card was that of another dealer. The cut out portion of the little card was where his price would have been. Subsequently, I mentioned that I had that cross and document. Of course, you guessed it - he remembered that beautiful cased 3rd class cross; but what is this business about a document?!

Not all was lost, Gentlemen. As it turns out that document to a major dated 1907 happens to be to a major who, ten years later, would be a major general who was a recipient of the Pour le Merite (Prussia?s highest military award).

Of course I offered to pay the dealer what it was really worth... yeah, sure; but I did let him know of the subsequent discoveries and he certainly wasn?t very happy.

What goes around, comes around,

Wild Card

[Bill Dienna]

I had the same experience a number of years ago. I purchased a cased Hindenburg Cross from an internet dealer in Imperial militaria. It came "with the award document". When I examined the cased cross upon receipt I did what I always do, and what you did: I lifted the pad in the case. And what do you suppose I found underneath? Yup, ANOTHER award document, which was presumably, but not conclusively, the original document for that cross.

Anyway...

Rick, because ( cue music ! ):

YOU ASKED FOR IT !

I will post photos of what were my best efforts last night at getting photos of the stamps on the award card for the Victory Over Germany medal and the Military Merit medal.

[Bill Dienna]

#

[Bill Dienna]

O.K, I'm REALLY ticked off, here. I took multiple photos of these stamps on the two documents. They were ALL the same size. I wrote them onto a cd from which I am now trying to post them. But although one picture loaded and was posted, every attempt with the other photos results in an error message that the files exceed the permitted size. But they are all the same size !

If anyone has any suggestions, let me know.

[Bill Dienna]

*

[Bill Dienna]

**

[Bill Dienna]

***

[Bill Dienna]

****

[Bill Dienna]

By the way...

The first of these photos I uploaded directly from my CD. Then every attempt to do that again resulted in the "too large" error message.

I then DOWN loaded the photos from the CD to my hard drive, and then attempted to UP load them to the posts.

No problems at all then, even though the photos remained the same size that had caused the "too large" error message.

[Guest Rick Research]

No sweat... with an Epson scannnnner.

ANYWAY, I could indeed read the stamp and all I need to see

of the issuing authority on his Victory Over Germany document--

he was a Captain (I think I can read that from the first group scan) NKGB for Leningrad Oblast.

The stamp in his Medals Book doesn't matter-- the serial number and dates there do. The stamp on his 1958 20 is also pre-printed.

[Bill Dienna]

Rick, many, many thanks.

You are a true historian.

But we already knew that, didn't we ?