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MOTHERLAND 2cl - two sub-variations ?


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MOTHERLAND 2cl - two sub-variations ?

Gentlemen,

I have to Motherland 2cl in my small & humble collection:

(sorry for that terrible scan :blush: .)

The left one on the scan has the s/n. 2213 is unissued (fresh from the stock) and arrived in Vienna around 1992/93 with a Motherland 3cl and the (usual) authentic order booklet with 100 % faked entries. Have a look at the document :P : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=114479 . O.K., at least it's an authentic & genuine Motherland 2cl :D .

The right one on the scan has the s/n. 1604 and arrived in Vienna also in the 1990s, but without any documents.

What's the big difference?

The gold plating :jumping: !

Motherland 2cl s/n. 1604:

Has the ident gold plating as shown on Andrew Kuznetsov's brilliant (English) website: http://mondvor.topcities.com/OZaSlRod.html

We can see a rather pale and dull gold plating, which is actually also rather thin. The gold plating is neither glossy, nor shiny and stains may come with the patina.

Motherland 2cl s/n. 2213:

Has the ident gold plating as shown in PMD's "Red Bible" on page 173 and in many official Soviet publications.

We can see a very intensive and high-quality gold plating, which is glossy & shiny and has no stains. Looks like the gold of a HSU, HSL or Lenin!

My questions:

1) Has there been an improvement in the quality of gold plating during manufacturing the Motherland 2cl? There had been difficulties in gold plating starting with the Order of the October Revolution. When - s/n. ? - did that change in gold plating took place.

2) Can we speak of a kind of sub-variation in the sense of Andrew's classification?

3) Does anyone have similar examples in his collection?

Best regards :beer:

Christian

BTW: I love the design of the "Crab", because it symbolizes the Soviet Forces of the past-GPW-period very well. I think, that the designer, retired Colonel L.D. Pilipenko, an engineer of the Dzerzhinsky Military Academy, has done an excellent job :love: . The "Crab" is a beauty with an impressive weight & size. On the other side, the Motherland 2cl is still a super-bargain, if you take the produced items - around 3.300 only! - into account. The market price (auction in Helsinki) is about USD 2.500,- only for a Motherland 2cl. If you compare that price with the price tags of early Lenin-screwbacks .... :rolleyes:

Edited by Christian Zulus
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Could you please post hi-res scans of both front and back of each order.

Dear Marc,

a late Motherland 2cl - more bright & shiny - with s/n. 2684 you can find on page 173 in Paul McDaniels "Red Bible" - av. & rv.

An earlier Motherland 2cl - more pale & dull - with s/n. 871 you can find at Andrew's website.

I also recognized, that later Motherlands (2cl & 3cl) have shorter - more comfortable - screws, than earlier ones.

Sorry, I can't deliver better scans of my own Motherlands, because I don't have a camera :blush: .

It's the question, if there is a noticeable variation, due to the gold plating, or not :unsure: ?

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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Just a thought: Could these be variations in preservation? Sometimes the gilding is so thin that it tarnished, evaporates, or is simply absorbed into the substrate? It is so easy to concoct separate sub-sub-sub-variants simply on the individual (unique) appearance of each piece based on wear, mood (alcohol-intake?) of the maker, preservation, conditions of storage? Always a skeptic. :P

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Just a thought: Could these be variations in preservation? Sometimes the gilding is so thin that it tarnished, evaporates, or is simply absorbed into the substrate? It is so easy to concoct separate sub-sub-sub-variants simply on the individual (unique) appearance of each piece based on wear, mood (alcohol-intake?) of the maker, preservation, conditions of storage? Always a skeptic. :P

Dear Ed,

these are some good points :cheers: .

I guess, that the substance of the material the makers used for the gold plating of the Motherlands 2cl was different - as they used longer screws initially for all Motherlands.

My theory is, that the mint - or some high ranking person in military or politics - wasn't happy with the gold plating and the long screw. So, with a new series in production of Motherlands the composition of the substance for the gold plating was improved and the screw shortened.

The mint also improved the fixing of the hammer & sickle at the Order of the October Revolution in the 1970s.

If you look at Paul McDaniel's and Andrew Kuznetsov's example (or the scanned item above) of a Motherland 2cl, you will see the difference.

The early Motherland 2cl shown in the scan above belongs to Andreas "Alfred" http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showuser=235 . Here two more views of his beauty from his website:

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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I also recognized, that later Motherlands (2cl & 3cl) have shorter - more comfortable - screws, than earlier ones.

I measured the lenght of the screw of two Homelands. s/n: 18.xxx and 70.xxx

The 70.xxx has a two (2) mm shorter screw than the 18.xxx.

In my oppinion that is a normal production variant, as other awards have.

best regrads

Andreas

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I also recognized, that later Motherlands (2cl & 3cl) have shorter - more comfortable - screws, than earlier ones.

I measured the lenght of the screw of two Homelands. s/n: 18.xxx and 70.xxx

The 70.xxx has a two (2) mm shorter screw than the 18.xxx.

In my oppinion that is a normal production variant, as other awards have.

Dear Andreas,

what's the length of the screw of your Motherland 2cl s/n. 718 ?

According to my theory, it should be the longer version :unsure: ?

In my small & humble collection of Soviet awards I have 4 Motherlands with 2 different length of screws - as you noticed it:

Motherland 3cl 24327 (a real awarded one :jumping: ) and Motherland 2cl 1604 have longer screws.

Motherland 3cl 128584 and Motherland 2cl 2213 (a pair fresh from the headquarter's stock) have shorter screws.

Andreas, what do you think of the difference in gold plating concerning earlier & later Motherland 2cl ?

Do you have such a later (higher numbered & unissued) Motherland 2cl in your collection ?

My Motherland 2cl 1604 looks almost ident to your Motherland 2cl 718 - like twins :D .

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With PMD no longer authenticating the 2nd and 1st classes I'd thread with caution.

Not that PMD is infallible ..... but a) he is perhaps one of the foremost students of Soviet ODMs, and b) the nature of the classes of this particular order lend themselves to very easy faking.

Jim :cheers:

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With PMD no longer authenticating the 2nd and 1st classes I'd thread with caution.

Dear Jim,

PMD stopped his authenticating services at all :( .

Maybe there had been no further demand of the (experienced) Russian collectors for PMD-certificates, who now dominate the market for almost 100 %. So, these certificates didn't add some extra value to the item in the view of the Russians.

The fact is, that there hadn't been any faked Motherland 2cl on the market during the period of the early 1990s to the mid 1990s - as PMD notes in the "Red Bible". The reason: There had been enough items from the stocks of higher military commands and the mint, which entered the market after the end of the CCCP.

I am lucky: Mine are from that "unfaked" era ;) .

But it is not sooo difficult to check a Motherland 2cl:

- s/n. - any manipulations, traces of sandblasting etc.

- gold plating

- way of fixing the parts of the order

- strucked quality of the single parts - sharp edges of the enameld ring with the letters

- quality of the enamel

- weight

- patina

If you already have some orginal & authentic items in your collection, the judgement is even easier :D .

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Edited by Christian Zulus
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Dear Christian,

PMD stopped authenticating Homelands 2nd class long before he closed his business. By the way, Alexei "continued the business from Paul" authenticating soviet orders, medals and badges.

In my honest oppinion, to fake a second class is very very easy. You take a 3rd class with low genuine serial number and plate the order with gold.

Thats all. Now you have a "genuine" 2nd class. You have to change no serial number. The only thing is, that the stock of low serial number 3rd class

is limited.

best regards

Andreas

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PMD stopped authenticating Homelands 2nd class long before he closed his business. By the way, Alexei "continued the business from Paul" authenticating soviet orders, medals and badges.

In my honest oppinion, to fake a second class is very very easy. You take a 3rd class with low genuine serial number and plate the order with gold. Thats all. Now you have a "genuine" 2nd class. You have to change no serial number. The only thing is, that the stock of low serial number 3rd class is limited.

Dear Andreas,

... and Alexei posted in the "other" Soviet forum, that he regards your Motherland 2cl s/n. 718 to be authentic :D .

So I guess, that there are some possibilities to check the originality of a Motherland 2cl - otherwise the collector wouldn't have paid about USD 2.500,- for that order at the Helsinki-auction last year.

As you already pointed out, Motherlands 3cl up to s/n. 3300 are extremly rare. I would say, that the market value of such a low numbered, early and in most cases awarded & researchable Motherland 3cl might equal the price of an unawarded Motherland 2cl. So it wouldn't make any economic sense to mutilate such a rare Motherland 3cl and invest a decent gold plating, if there isn't a surplus in business :speechless: .

My theory is, that the kind of gold plating might indicate, if the item is autentic or a fake :jumping: .

There might have been 2 series in manufacturing the Motherland 2cl and attaching the gold plating:

- a first series (maybe up to s/n. 2000 :unsure: ?) with that rather pale goldplating + longer screw, as we can see with your item or on Andrew's website

- a second series (maybe from s/n. 2001 up to s/n. 3300 :unsure: ?) with the more bright gold plating + shorter screw.

If you compare a genuine Motherland 2cl with on of the two kinds of gold plating to a (rather well made!) copy of the former Russian company CAPRAL you will see the difference immedeatly: CAPRAL's gold plating is much more going to a red colour tone, than a late Motherland 2cl.

I guess, that it is hardly possible to attach a 100 % matching gold plating to an "improved" Motherland 3cl. Specially not to fake an early Motherland 2cl with that pale & dull gold plating and with these stains of patina on the gold plating.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of Andrew and Alexei about the possibilities of authentication in the case of Motherland 2cl :love: .

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Edited by Christian Zulus
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Dear Andreas,

... and Alexei posted in the "other" Soviet forum, that he regards your Motherland 2cl s/n. 718 to be authentic :D .

So I guess, that there are some possibilities to check the originality of a Motherland 2cl - otherwise the collector wouldn't have paid about USD 2.500,- for that order at the Helsinki-auction last year.

As you already pointed out, Motherlands 3cl up to s/n. 3300 are extremly rare. I would say, that the market value of such a low numbered, early and in most cases awarded & researchable Motherland 3cl might equal the price of an unawarded Motherland 2cl. So it wouldn't make any economic sense to mutilate such a rare Motherland 3cl and invest a decent gold plating, if there isn't a surplus in business :speechless: .

My theory is, that the kind of gold plating might indicate, if the item is autentic or a fake :jumping: .

There might have been 2 series in manufacturing the Motherland 2cl and attaching the gold plating:

- a first series (maybe up to s/n. 2000 :unsure: ?) with that rather pale goldplating + longer screw, as we can see with your item or on Andrew's website

- a second series (maybe from s/n. 2001 up to s/n. 3300 :unsure: ?) with the more bright gold plating + shorter screw.

If you compare a genuine Motherland 2cl with on of the two kinds of gold plating to a (rather well made!) copy of the former Russian company CAPRAL you will see the difference immedeatly: CAPRAL's gold plating is much more going to a red colour tone, than a late Motherland 2cl.

I guess, that it is hardly possible to attach a 100 % matching gold plating to an "improved" Motherland 3cl. Specially not to fake an early Motherland 2cl with that pale & dull gold plating and with these stains of patina on the gold plating.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of Andrew and Alexei about the possibilities of authentication in the case of Motherland 2cl :love: .

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Christian,

It is possible to differentiate between 2nd and 3rd class, but it is a very tedious and tough process. Igor Pack did an excellent survey of confirmed 2nd classes, from which he came up with some very detailed fine points. To make things short, 2nd and 3rd classes were struck with different dies, ans it is possible to identify which is which. Gold plating is NOT a reliable indicator of class, as its state of preservation may vary greatly depending on many external and chemical factors.

From the look of Andreas' order #718, some of the key watermarks of a 2nd class are indeed present. Now, to tell for sure beyond that would require very hi-res scans of some specific areas.

Marc

Edited by Lapa
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Better scans of my two Motherlands 2cl

It is possible to differentiate between 2nd and 3rd class, but it is a very tedious and tough process. Igor Pack did an excellent survey of confirmed 2nd classes, from which he came up with some very detailed fine points. To make things short, 2nd and 3rd classes were struck with different dies, ans it is possible to identify which is which. Gold plating is NOT a reliable indicator of class, as its state of preservation may vary greatly depending on many external and chemical factors.

From the look of Andreas' order #718, some of the key watermarks of a 2nd class are indeed present. Now, to tell for sure beyond that would require very hi-res scans of some specific areas.

Dear Marc,

many thanks for your information :cheers: .

Igor & Andrew might be the most experienced experts in the field of Soviet awards.

I made some scans of my two Motherlands 2cl av. & rv. and with different light and backgrounds.

The mint might have used also differnt dies - not only differnt gold plating - for the two (might be :unsure: ) series of 2cl: Have a look at the tips on the bundle of rays or at the ring with the inscription.

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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There IS a (small) line under s/n. 2213.

Christian,

Nice pictures, but they do not allow to make an exact diagnosis of the patients, as details are at an almost microscopic level.

Anyway, from the outside, global look of it, your 2213 looks OK (but need to verify some other details); your 1604 displays several signs typical of an upgraded 3rd class (shape of the top ray, lack of line under SN, handwriting of the SN, etc). This would also explain the difference in gold plating :rolleyes:

Marc

Edited by Lapa
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Nice pictures, but they do not allow to make an exact diagnosis of the patients, as details are at an almost microscopic level.

Anyway, from the outside, global look of it, your 2213 looks OK (but need to verify some other details); your 1604 displays several signs typical of an upgraded 3rd class (shape of the top ray, lack of line under SN, handwriting of the SN, etc). This would also explain the difference in gold plating :rolleyes:

Dear Marc,

many thanks for your expertise :cheers: .

I had never any doubts about Motherland 2cl s/n. 2213 - it's a real beauty and I paid in spring 1994 the hughe sum of EUR 630,- :speechless: for that item. I was fascinated by the design and the quality and so I paid that (idiotic :blush: ) amount of money for that order. As already mentioned, the very early 1990s had been a period without faked Motherlands 2cl, due to the fact, that there had been hundreds of them in the stocks of the higher military commands (+ unissued order booklets) waiting for being sold to the West ;) .

I had some times doubts about the authenticy of Motherland 2cl s/n. 1604, which I bought years later for the more moderate price of EUR 180,-.

But I compared my 1604 to other - authentic - Motherlands 2cl, like the very early ones of Maksim on Andrew/Igor's website s/n. 871 or Andreas' s/n. 718, and found no severe differences at the av., but the rv. (no fine line under s/n., but something like a small "beam") is different. What convinced me partly, was the quality of the gold plating, which was ident in colour and that pale & dull impression.

What are the details on microscopic level, we have to look at :unsure: ?

Why used the mint different dies for the 3 different classes of Motherland - it was only the gold plating, which made the difference :unsure: ?

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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Dear Marc,

many thanks for your expertise :cheers: .

I had never any doubts about Motherland 2cl s/n. 2213 - it's a real beauty and I paid in spring 1994 the hughe sum of EUR 630,- :speechless: for that item. I was fascinated by the design and the quality and so I paid that (idiotic :blush: ) amount of money for that order. As already mentioned, the very early 1990s had been a period without faked Motherlands 2cl, due to the fact, that there had been hundreds of them in the stocks of the higher military commands (+ unissued order booklets) waiting for being sold to the West ;) .

I had some times doubts about the authenticy of Motherland 2cl s/n. 1604, which I bought years later for the more moderate price of EUR 180,-.

But I compared my 1604 to other - authentic - Motherlands 2cl, like the very early ones of Maksim on Andrew/Igor's website s/n. 871 or Andreas' s/n. 718, and found no severe differences at the av., but the rv. (no fine line under s/n., but something like a small "beam") is different. What convinced me partly, was the quality of the gold plating, which was ident in colour and that pale & dull impression.

What are the details on microscopic level, we have to look at :unsure: ?

Why used the mint different dies for the 3 different classes of Motherland - it was only the gold plating, which made the difference :unsure: ?

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Christian,

There are minute engraving differences in the wreath under the central star between 2nd and 3rd classes; the back plate was struck with a different die that was not used to strike 3rd classes.

One of the very first identification spot is the top ray seen from the back. On genuine 2nd class (but also on early 3rd classes), that element has parallel edges, (see # 2213), but on fakes made using later 3rd classes (the most widely available), that element is drop-shaped (see # 1604).

Now, I cannot answer as to why the mint used different dies, but the fact is that they did.

Marc

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There are minute engraving differences in the wreath under the central star between 2nd and 3rd classes; the back plate was struck with a different die that was not used to strike 3rd classes.

One of the very first identification spot is the top ray seen from the back. On genuine 2nd class (but also on early 3rd classes), that element has parallel edges, (see # 2213), but on fakes made using later 3rd classes (the most widely available), that element is drop-shaped (see # 1604).

Now, I cannot answer as to why the mint used different dies, but the fact is that they did.

Dear Marc,

yes, there is a difference in the form of the wreath under the central star - 2213 is more "slim".

But the s/n. of 1604 is engraved by a rotating tool instrument :jumping: . (Maybe my scans are too bad ... :blush: ). There are also no signs or traces at the rv. of 1604 of the usual manipulations.

1604's top ray is drop-shaped, but my two Motherlands 3cl - s/n. 24327 & 128584 - have (like Motherland 2cl 2213) parallel edges.

Maybe the mint used elements from different dies to manufacture the Motherland 2cl :unsure: ?

First the mint struck the elements of a Motherland and later on the handcrafters got the elements from the stock for finishing a 2cl or 1cl :unsure: ?

Did Igor Pak list anywhere in the internet his crucial points of identifying authentic Motherland 2cl :unsure: ?

Did Igor present some scans somewhere in the www :unsure: ?

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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