EK 1914 1914 Clasp to 1870 EK

[Gordon Williamson]

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[Biro]

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Oh wonderfull !!!!!!!!

Another one to add to my list of... er... 'variations'... each and every one of these a little different from the other -

Not all are marked 'Wagner' though.... which is something I suppose.

[Biro]

Not all are marked 'Wagner' though.... which is something I suppose......

.... especially when you consider this is about as good as it gets for the chances of matching an obverse from a photo...

picture - druelle

[attachmentid=12349]

Still - it lends a little credence to the notion that prong attatchments are indeed a valid period attatchment method - not to mention mounted on individually worn EK2's!

Marshall

Edited October 3, 2005 by Biro

[Gordon Williamson]

Here's another. A bit like the one second from top at left on Marshall's montage.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

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I've got no hope for this one with the all too even pattern of 'dots' and muffin looking crown.

[deptfordboy]

Evening Gents,

Here is my example, also marked Wagner, although it is extremely difficult to see under the tarnish. It has a perforated slider attachment.

Cheers

Gilbert

Edited October 21, 2005 by deptfordboy

[deptfordboy]

and the reverse, with slider...

[Stogieman]

Believe it or not....... the last one of these I saw that was the real deal was about 5 years ago. Cased from an obscure Hamburg Jeweler. Had the cross, the oaks and the repeat bar. At Manion's of all places and quite real.

[Stogieman]

One of the few real ones I ever had. Came in stripped off a medal bar. B*stards

[Stogieman]

reverse of the group

[Paul R]

reverse of the group

That is a real beauty!

Paul

[joe campbell]

marshall-

i wish you would post some of your pictures

of the various wiederholungspangen.

they were quite helpful to me, original, and

bear showing here.

thanks!

joe

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

One of the few real ones I ever had. Came in stripped off a medal bar. B*stards

You need to post larger pictures!

[Stogieman]

Hi Brian.... some of these archived photos are 5-10 years old and show the limitations of the equipment available at the time...... not much you can do with them and the pieces are long gone.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Rick, did it have the pearls around the entire frame of the EK?

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Here's another. A bit like the one second from top at left on Marshall's montage.

Looks like the early first style.

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is mine. It was on the WAF, but the scans were no good. Here are some better photos

Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is the reverse. It looks good to me, but I await your verdict.

Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is the MM in a negative image. Note, it is a weak strike and some of the letter are not fully formed.

Dan Murphy

Edited October 27, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is a close up of the dots on the arm as discussed on the WAF. It has the "cats paw", the curved line etc.

Dan Murphy

Edited October 27, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Biro]

Here is a close up of the dots on the arm as discussed on the WAF. It has the "cats paw", the curved line etc.

Dan Murphy

Cats Paw? - Wow - I've coined a phrase!!

Just to elaborate a little on Dans posting, I'll offer up what I have discovered so far about the elusive 1914 WHS and give you guys all something to ponder...

To briefly explain, a while ago I started compiling images submitted by forum members both here and on WAF so I could study the detail of some of our collective examples and try and form some sort of opinion for myself. Was there an obvious footprint to a fake...?? Were there similarities or glaring differences in the various samples I collected..?? Hell, I even bought one off ebay for the princely sum of 300 Euro so I had another one in hand after my first one went back to the dealer.

I have a good dozen reasonable images of all your pieces.... yes...YOU.... and the first thing I should state is that as far as I am concerned, the obverse characteristics are identical. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I am 99.9% positive that each and every one of you have these features to the obverse of your pieces.

The infamous 'cats paw' and the distinctive 'curved line' pattern....

Go on - check 'em so we're all on the same page here...

[attachmentid=14112]

[Biro]

So that was that - the obverses of all our pieces were identical... the crowns and dates matched, the little pearls used to replicate beading matched, right down to the pebbling. All identical.

But then I saw this...... A finishing oversight or the mark of a fake??

The ones on the left have NO 'flare' to the outer edge of the central cross, the ones on the right DO!!

[attachmentid=14117]

Edited October 27, 2005 by Biro

[Biro]

I expected that once I took a look at the reverse, it would become obvious whether flared or flat was the one to go for....

Naturally, that was far from the case........

A compilation of our collective maker marks - check the amazing variation in the formation of the Moons, the shape of the J's, the spacing between letters or words, and the missing 'periods' on some of these examples... etc... etc...

[attachmentid=14116]

Edited October 27, 2005 by Biro

[Biro]

So I'm sorry I can't offer anyything more at this stage than what I have posted here... but I think it's at least reiterated that we have PLENTY more study to do..!!!!!

Cheers

Marshall

[Daniel Murphy]

So, IF all of these are original, it would indicate that they were all struck from the same die, but finished by two or more persons (mine has a slight amount of the "flare", most of which appears to have been removed with hand finishing) . Notice that so far there appears to be three different markings. 1, clipped moon without a dot aftyer the "W". 2, clipped moon with a dot after the "W". 3, regular moon with a dot after the "W".

Now, looking at the other letters, all of the maker marks appear to be made with the same stamp (or more than one virtually identical stamps with just a couple of different features. Since these would be hand made this is unlikely). Some are stamped deeper and some are weakly stamped, but there are many identical features are on all of the marks. My theory is that similar to Dietrichs Die Flaw work on the S&L RK's , the stamp used for the maker marks was damaged with use. The lettering on this stamp is so small that it could easily become damaged, and this damaged stamp, when blown up in a photo, appears to be a major difference when we are actually talking about a letter or design smaller than a millimeter The first ones made have the full crown and period after the W, then the crown became chipped and we have the clipped (chipped?) crown with the the period after the W, and then the period was broken off and we have the clipped crown without the period after the W. I am not trying to justify that mine, although different from some others, is real. I am trying to make some sense from all of the inconsistencies. Not only should we look at how they are different, we should look at how they are the same.

Dan Murphy

Edited October 27, 2005 by Daniel Murphy