Yugoslavia Order of the Republic 1st Class with star from red enamel.

[wlodzimierz]

Gentlemen,

we know that one of the constants in production of Yugoslavian OMDs was flexibility. Sometimes you can ask yourself if they sticked to guidelines. We know that there are some orders from one class which were converted to other class. And that there are updates which change appearance of order.

I want show you one piece, which was described already in Mr. Velitsko's book. As far I know there are no pictures of this order at all.

Anatoly and me had discussion about this order, now after I got better images I think that it is very rare type and the last one.

If you look at reverse you will find normal reverse for 2nd class order made after 1985 from gilded tombac. You will see even 'fresh' revets.

On averse you can see in the middle a ring with white stones which was used in 1st class order. If you look closely you will find that this ring is not 'converted' from 2nd class. The ring with white stones seems to be genuine with holes in metal below stones.

Mr.Velitschko states that this type exists without details. If you look at reverse of normal 1st class you will find holes below rubies (this is normal). If you want to use enamel and you have holes in metal you would loose enamel after it would turn into liquid state. I think that in order to solve this problem they used existing parts of 2nd class.

I don't think that it is fake or home made. It would make no sense to make a new order which generate many questions. It is easier to sell a good 'copy' of rare existing and well known order as to sell a new type of order where you have to explain that this type realy exists. Thats why I think that this order is real one.

what is you opinion?

hier is averse:

[wlodzimierz]

and reverse

[Anatoly13]

You know my opinion,Waldemar.

And after this good pictures it don't change.

I don't believe in this "last emission".

[seb16trs]

hello Anatoly, what must have a genuine emission compared to this one?

[bolgarin]

Anatoly good day. And why you dont think that this item could be example of lust emissions?

[Anatoly13]

Because this is ordinary Order of Republic 2 nd class upgraded to 1st class for money reason.

And you can see broken left rivet so order has been disassembled, and then is again collected.

[bolgarin]

One of my friends-collegues offered me such order about 6-8 month ago in original box. I think about possible purchase of it, but my final decision was to reject this offer. But realy to this moment i cant say for sure about it originality. This is the scans.

[bolgarin]

[bolgarin]

[bolgarin]

[bolgarin]

Reverse in little bit different.

1. Rivets is ok on my opinion

2. We can see marks on reverse

[Anatoly13]

This one seems better.

But who knows who converted 2nd cl to 1 st???

[bolgarin]

I think that this situation is possible:

In the lust period of socialist regime in Yugoslavia exist big amount of non awarded parts of order of 2-d class and central parts of 1-t class. In order to make the produce more "rentable" on the mint began to make compilation of 1-st and 2-nd class details......

Anatoly you know that in lust period of communist regimes such situation was possible. Remeber Bulgaria, Chehoslovakia, GDR, Mongolia. Quality of the awards became really terrible.

[Anatoly13]

May be,may be...

Lets wait more opinions.

[SasaYU]

I think that this situation is possible:

In the lust period of socialist regime in Yugoslavia exist big amount of non awarded parts of order of 2-d class and central parts of 1-t class. In order to make the produce more "rentable" on the mint began to make compilation of 1-st and 2-nd class details......

Anatoly you know that in lust period of communist regimes such situation was possible. Remeber Bulgaria, Chehoslovakia, GDR, Mongolia. Quality of the awards became really terrible.

Bolgarin,

I think that orders and medals of SFR Yugoslavia cannot be compared to ones of Bulgaria, Chehoslovakia, GDR and Mongolia.

In fact, in Yugoslavia there was no "communist regime" but socialist government a lot different and more democratic than other so called "communist regimes".

You can see a BIG difference between order on your photos and Waldemar's.

I agree with Anatoly.

The question is if the order is a complete fake or just "converted 2nd cl to 1 st" as Anatoly says ?

[Mister No]

With no hallmarks, it is suspect to me, for first class.

[bolgarin]

Bolgarin,

I think that orders and medals of SFR Yugoslavia cannot be compared to ones of Bulgaria, Chehoslovakia, GDR and Mongolia.

In fact, in Yugoslavia there was no "communist regime" but socialist government a lot different and more democratic than other so called "communist regimes".

You can see a BIG difference between order on your photos and Waldemar's.

I agree with Anatoly.

The question is if the order is a complete fake or just "converted 2nd cl to 1 st" as Anatoly says ?

I dont agree that that orders of Yugoslavia cannot be compared to ones of other communist countrys. On my opinion in all kommunist or socialist states the situation was the same (of course with different variations). During the end of 70-begining of 80-th the quality of awards became bader and bader. Please remember that in Yugo in this period many orders began to produce not from silver and gold, but from tompak and bronze. So for me it not a problem to suppose that in order to economy of metal they began to produce compiliar awards from the parts of awards of different classes. So for example my order can be items made from the silver part of 2-d class and medalion of 1-st class and Waldemar item made from tompak part of 2-d class......

[wlodzimierz]

Gentlemen,

the question if there were Order of Republik 1st class with star made from red enamel was most dominant question in last two weeks. Anatoly and I made additional and deeper researches and outcome is: yes there were such orders. It is common opinion of many experts we have contacted.

To be fully convinced we are looking for document, photo where we could see this order.

It was for great surprise to learn that there were orders with red enameled star not only 6 torches but there was one type with 5 torches!!!.

What complicate our hypothesis that such order were done at the end of communism.

In the case of order presented above we can suppose that this order was made in last period of communism, where basis part of order from 2^nd class was used to produce 1^st class order.

We have identified 4 variants of such order.

Meantime I found another type of such order, take a look:

[wlodzimierz]

reverse

[bolgarin]

Thanks for this complicated?information......

P.S.

My suppose was absolutely right.....

[bolgarin]

The common situation for many ex communist countrys. In last period the quality of awards became badder and badder......

Edited May 13, 2008 by bolgarin

[orden_master]

As I am living in Switzerland, one of the mothercountrys of democracy I would come up with a wonderfull Swiss like compromise:

I think that most of the issues written before are correct:

1: I think that all pieces shown are genuine

2: I think that there has been a certain amount of converted items 2nd into 1st class, probably for various reasons like lack of money, lack of material, lack of willingness to accomplish a perfect work etc. etc. there are certainly more explanations than this

3: It is a fact that aproaching the brake up of SFRJ the quality was significantly decreasing, thus I would still upstand for the term "last issues"

4: Unfortunatel as also stated the country was run in a differnt way than other comunistic countrys and one of the favorite slogans wath "self-managment of the working class" which mostly resumed in a total chaos and a absolute lack of control. Thus also almost nada documentations and papers with details about production, number of made items etc.

Waiting your opinions about my way to look at it.

regards

Milan

The common situation for many ex communist countrys. In last period the quality of awards became badder and badder......