Noor Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Hello,Like Rick told me here:http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2806...mp;#entry265371the owner of this ribbon bar is not Generalleutnant a.D. von Schabel, commander of the 2.FussArtillerie Brigade like I tought.But the combination is still trackable? Who was the owner of this ribbon bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted May 19, 2008 Author Share Posted May 19, 2008 Any toughts guys Regards,Noor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Krause Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I would like to hold it in my hands to get a better opinion.The combinations makes no sense at all.Peacetime blue ribbon in front of the Hindenburg, after that the double red eagle, another peacetime blue ribbon...what is that???Best regardsDaniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 Maybe some extra pictures help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted May 30, 2008 Author Share Posted May 30, 2008 Please help me out here guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted May 30, 2008 Author Share Posted May 30, 2008 Here is the auction when this ribbon bar was on sale a long long long time ago. Last owner got it already without those douments.I am far from an expert on judging ribbon bars originalaty, but I must say I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Timo, just because some joker gives a "certificate of authenticity" doean't make it real...I find it almost incomprehensible that a General officer would mount his awards in total violation of standards, protocal and regulations....The only possibility I see is if the first cornflower blue ribbon (in front of the Honor Cross) was being used to represent a W?rttemberg Friedrich's Order. If that is so, given the number of devices on the bar.... why no swords on this ribbon? He mounted a peace-time W?rttemberg Order before the Honor Cross and then mounted all of his Prussian peace-time orders after?? That makes no sense at all. More troubling is the presence of double Red Eagle ribbons... especially given the second one bears a crown.... this combination simply makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Once it was in auction at Hermann Historica !!!Stogie......... just one thing to think about............do you remember our special friend, the master of nonsense bars Freiherr von Dincklage-Campe He had awards on his bar that normally were not shown on bars................. what, when our friend here did the same? Could it be possible that the first red eagle order is a higher class, (against the rules) represented by this ribbon??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Yes, I remember that one... and I am considering that he may have used double RAO's for his 3. kl. und 4.kl.mK.... but it still is really hard to wrap my head around this combination... even the bar you show bore more logic than this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Ahhh, von Dincklage-Campe-- the Madman of Ribbon Bars!He got everything wrong, but we were able to PROVE that the combination-- corrected from how he wore it-- WAS his.As Daniel has said, and I repeat: the combination certainly LOOKS old on the "von Schabel" bar but it makes NO SENSE whatsoever, and the grades of awards shown on it 1) do not match his2) suggest a Major3) again and again are so completely defiant of all sane and proper regulations as to defy identification without a named photo of the joker actually WEARING it.Let me simply state reality:there are NO greater living experts on identifying German award groups than the very small circle of my fellow Research Gnomes who post here on this Forum. That's decades of experience doing this. We all know each other, and value each other's special expertise. When even we cannot find something, it's well and truly unfindable.And the assertions of ebay sellers who claim that THEY are somehow miraculously more expert than we are, are laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted May 31, 2008 Author Share Posted May 31, 2008 What a "great" bad bad evening to find out so many things about my pieces .Thanks guys anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 My gut likes this bar. The devices look - and presumably are - perfectly good, especially the crown is . The sewing seems fine to me, too. Stogierick explained what may be possible about the plain blue ribbon - swords missing, whatever the reason, or a peace time award worn stipidly. The empty RAO ribbon suggestst a 3rd class. Did they just mount no bow or were they worn without bow if the 4th class had a crown? I'm not sure about these issues, but what I know for sure is that the 4th class with the royal crown was still worn when higher classes were awarded, so this makes (almost) perfectly sense to me. Furthermore the combination looks to be "higher" than a Majors with RAO3S - should be Oberst to Generalmajor? I don't know when Generalleutnant a.D. was his rank, but that may be right. Couldn't someone check what awards Schnabel had and post it here roughly? Thanks in advance. PS: I'm not the seller, I just have a better feeling with it than you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 that`s it...............my feeling with the bar is absolutely good too!!!! Maybe it is not Von Schabel and maybe it makes no sense - BUT - Ithink the bar is ok and not new made - 100% !!!! Don`t worry Timo, if it is not Von Schabel maybe some day a stupid wearer photo appears and the sun will shine over Dublin again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernd D Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 I?m sorry to say, but a von Schnabel never got a Bavarian MVO.It is not his bar!Bernd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Thanks Bernd. I just realized the swords on MVO ribbon are silver which suggest a lower rank than RAO4Kr and RAO3S. It looks good but I'm not sure about it. It may be a put together from good parts...? I don't know, sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Again I must add that once of the reasons I trace a ribbon bar or medal bar before I buy it to make sure that it is genuine. If the combination can be traced and the bar looks like it has not been messed with then in all probability it is good. I key is to verify before laying out the cash. As Rick said group on this forum is the best and most experienced that I know of the their advice will save you from time effort and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 I?m sorry to say, but a von Schnabel never got a Bavarian MVO.It is not his bar!BerndBernd , I have Generalmajor Schabel in the 1914 rank list as commander 2.Fu?artillerie-Brigade with bavarian MVO 4.class with crown !!!Also he has there:red eagle 3.class with bowred eagle 4.class with crowncrown order 2.classlong service 25 yearsW?rttemberg order of the crownW?rttemberg Friedrichsorden knights cross 1.class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 ...............if we think now for one second - only one little second - that he mounted his awards as weired as Dincklage-Campe................ .................why should not the first wider blue ribbon be the ribbon for his crown order 2.class....second blue ribbon for Friedrichorden... on BMVO maybe the crown was changed into swords.... the bow for the read eagle 3 is missing.....then we would have the pre war awards of von Schabel....has anyone his complete ww1 awards????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernd D Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Bernd , I have Generalmajor Schabel in the 1914 rank list as commander 2.Fu?artillerie-Brigade with bavarian MVO 4.class with crown !!!Heiko, you are right. I mixed up the names Schabel and Schnabel. Nevertheless Schabel had the 4th class with crown but returned it 1914 in order to get the MVO 2nd class. He also got the MVO2nd class with swords during WWI.So still no MVO on his medal bar during/after WWI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Krause Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 After thinking again and again I come with the following theory:- EK2 is clearNow 3 commander classes as unofficial ?Kleindekoration?:- Hohenzollern Commander with X - in the published rolls- W?rttemberg Crown Order commander with X - in the soon-published Wtbg roll- Bayern MVO 2 with X with incorrect silver swords - in the published rollsOne more war decoration- Hessen Bravery MedalAnother inofficial ?Kleindekoration?- Preu?. Crown Order 2nd classThe others seems to be o.k. as:- Hindenburg cross- RAO3 bow missing- RAO4 with crown- W?rttemberg Friedrich knight 1st class- Preu?. XXV- Preu?. Centenary- ?st. MVK 3 with war dec.Under this circumstances it can indeed be the bar of MajGen Johannes Aloys Schabel.Best regardsDaniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 thanks Daniel...... that`s exactly what I want to say all the time - weired bar with mixed up ribbon bar and non-ribbon bar orders - but in some way matching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernd D Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Sorry Daniel, but I don?t think a General will wear a MVO4x on the ribbon bar when he got a 2x (in gold).We know that a lot of soldiers mixed up their bars in sequence, with skipped decorations and sometimes showing more than they got. But I don?t think a General will wear five classes under worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 It's weird but I "believe" in the bar, now more than before of course. Someone who won a non-combattant award wouldn't wear a combattant's ribbon with additional, useless swords, right? Well, Dincklage-Campe _did_. There are things that make no sense at all and though are good. This should not make Frankenstein bars legit, it's just for not condamming good, actually great bars too fast... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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