Case with St. Helena and bavarian commerative cross

[Christian J]

Thought that this had to be saved for posterity.

Such a nice set for an veteran of the front in Tirol, the campaign against Russia and the march against his former employers. One of the 10 000 germans of the original 90 000 that surived the harsh winter and brutal conditions on the russian plains and were alive to be awarded the bavarian commerative in 1848 and the St Helena from Napoleon III in 1857. Would say that he atleast had reached his late sixties.

[Kev in Deva]

Now that is SWEET

Kevin in Deva.

[Ulsterman]

Dear Lord!

How much did it go for? I would have taken a second mortgage to obtain that pair. That is probably the finest continental Napoleonic enlisted grouping extant today.

Do you know how rare that pair actually is?

Most of the VI Corps (under St. Cyr) was made up of disaffected Bavarians raised in the Tyrol. Thousands deserted, but the vast majority were killed in action around Polotsk, at Borodino or evaporated in the Retreat.

My casualty list summary shows fewer than 350 Bavarians of all ranks made it back at all. Almost half were officers or NCOs.

Faber Du Faur, the famous artist and patriarch of the famous Bavarian military (still prominent today in fact) aristocratic family, painted a series of vignettes of Bavarians during the retreat that are still frightening to look at.

The ones of Bavarians attempting to keep warm beneath the walls and towers of Smolensk are....disquieting.

Poignant perhaps, is that I have photos of other Bavarians sitting underneath the same towers taken 130 years later.

They looked miserable too-and were also doomed.

Plus ca change....

Edited August 15, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

FANTASTIC Personalized pair. What was his family name? I can't quite read it.

He must have been one of the very last of the very few....

[Ulsterman]

Rummaging through old obscure Napoleonic sources I suspect Herr Fuchs may well have been one (un)lucky POW in 1812/13.

About 400-2,500 Bavarians came home that way and it explains him missing Leipzig etc., but being there for the invasion of France in 1814.

Look closely at the box. Look very closely.....

Edited May 22, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Eric Stahlhut]

Absolutely wonderful set!!!

[Josef Rietveld]

Dear Lord!

How much did it go for?

448 Euro

josef

[Ulsterman]

448 Euro

josef

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

Sob! Sob!

Much gnashing of teeth and rending of shirts here-ashes, ashes!

I would have expected at least 2500 Euros .

Someone got a bargain I think.

There should be a crying smiley icon.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Ulsterman

[922F]

Magnificant!! Concur completely with comments on this wonderful pair!

[Christian J]

I would say that his name were Michael Josef Fled.

I already regret my bid at 421, but that is the name of the game, can't win them all.

Edited May 20, 2008 by RaZpuTiN

[Christian J]

Dear Lord!

How much did it go for? I would have taken a second mortgage to obtain that pair. That is probably the finest continental Napoleonic enlisted grouping extant today.

Do you know how rare that pair actually is?

Most of the VI Corps (under St. Cyr) was made up of disaffected Bavarians raised in the Tyrol. Thousands deserted, but the vast majority were killed in action around Polotsk, at Borodino or evaporated in the Retreat.

My casualty list summary shows fewer than 350 Bavarians of all ranks made it back at all. Almost half were officers or NCOs.

Faber Du Faur, the famous artist and patriarch of the famous Bavarian military (still prominent today in fact) aristocratic family, painted a series of vignettes of Bavarians during the retreat that are still frightening to look at.

The ones of Bavarians attempting to keep warm beneath the walls and towers of Smolensk are....disquieting.

Poignant perhaps, isthat I have photos of other Bavarians sitting underneath the same towers taken 130 years later. They looked miserable too. Plus ca change....

Only briefly researched it before putting down my bid. It's quite an enchanting item.

Please share more if you are able to. If we can't have it, at least we can enjoy it's history.

Is this print from du faur you were mentioning?

[Chris Boonzaier]

It was a priceless bit of history. Funny something like this went for so little. I woulda bid a tad more (If I had seen it and had the money).

However, many of out bretheren would roll out the "You buy the pieces, not the story" argument.

[Ed_Haynes]

Absolutely lovely, immense historical value, and it sold for an absolute song. And "Buying the story" is a very different thing from "buying the history"; "pieces" are just meaningless things, only with history do they become collectible and interesting (= research).

[Ulsterman]

Only briefly researched it before putting down my bid. It's quite an enchanting item.

Please share more if you are able to. If we can't have it, at least we can enjoy it's history.

Is this print from du faur you were mentioning?

No- actually I'm thinking of Du Faur's picture of the Wurtemberger's destroying their artillery, my mistake (the helmets were similar). I'd bet good money that Herr Fuchs' pension records are still on-file in Bavaria. The german librarians don't seem to mind research into Napoleonic themes.

But here is one of my shots of an NSKK wagen in Smolensk in the winter of 1942-120 years later and not far from the scene above:

Edited May 21, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Stogieman]

I agree with Ulsterman that this is one of the best Napoleonic groups I have seen in years. The custom case with all that history in the lid is what really makes it for me. This is the closest I ever came to a piece of this magnitude.... but no name, no history and no ribbons...

[mossop]

I picked this group up, it just arrived today and is quite fantastic! - I too was very suprised at the price. I've posted a question on the Imperial research forum if anyone can help with the man that would be great.

Mossop

[Stogieman]

Congratulations! A treasure for sure! And welcome!!

[mossop]

Thanks Stogieman, I've got other Napoleonic medals but never thought I'd get one to a Bavarian that I could possibly research.

Mossop

[Ulsterman]

There are "survivor lists" of the various Bavarian regiments that assembled in Germany in 1813. I doubt Fleck is there, but you never know.

I'd check the Bavarian Chevaleager Regt. first as they had the most survivors (and were denied sick leave)-a whopping 80 (!) survived the Retreat-almost a whole 8.5% of the original cadre.

I reckon he'll show up in pension records though somewhere in Munich.

[mossop]

Many thanksfor you suggestion Ulsterman, I'll try and find someone that does reasearch in the Munich Archives - presume this is where I'd find the survivors list also?

Mossop

[Ulsterman]

I think so. However, I'd try the UK Napoleonic Society first. They have odd bits and pieces laying about.

[mossop]

Will do Ulsterman, thanks for letting me know

Great stuff Barry, that information is fantastic, would have taken me forever to get such information together. I have another German medal to an Officer who fought for the Prussians, Westphalia and finally Hannover (in a previous post) but have never looked into the Bavarian part before.

Anything else you can ask (feeling I'm asking too much already!) would be great.

Mossop

[Christian J]

Now doesn't I regret not bidding higher. What was your maxbid?

At least it went to member of the forum, so well all can enjoy the research.

Edited May 30, 2008 by RaZpuTiN

[mossop]

To be honest it wasn't much more than what I got it for, not that I didn't think it was worth more just thought the 'big guns' would be out and I'd have no chance!

Appologies for the out bid - I owe you a drink

Mossop

[Bear]

Hello,

The 1809 campaign is my favorite. Napoleon lost some of his best commanders. The Bavarians were mainly under the command of Deroy and Wrede.

1809 Campaign Bulletins

Ratisbon, 24 April 1809

The three Bavarians divisions under the orders of the Duke of Danzig(Lefebvre 7th Corps).

First Division commanded by the Prince Royal.

Second Division commanded by General Deroy.

Third Division commanded by General Wrede.

The Bavarians seem to have taken part in most of the actions during this campaign(Abensberg & Eckmuhl & Wagram ect.). The Bavarians were also broken into various regiments and attached to other corps.

Burghausen, 30 April 1809

The Emperor arrived at Muhldorf at six in the evening of the 27th. His Majesty dispatched the divison of General Wrede to Laufen on the Salza, in order to overtake the corps that the enemy had left in the Tyrol and which was retreating by forced marches. General Wrede overtook the enemy's rear on the 28th, near Laufen, took the baggage and took many prisoners; but the enemy had sufficient time to cross the river and burn the bridge. On the 27th, the Duke of Danzig arrived in Wanesburg, and on the 28th, in Altenmarkt. On the 29th General Wrede continued his march to Salzburg with his division: about three leagues from the town on the road to Laufen, he found the advanced posts of the enemy's army. The Bavarians pursued them closely and entered Salzburg with them. General Wrede assures us that the division of General Jellacic is completely dispersed. That general has thus been punished for the scandalous proclamation by which he put the dagger in the hands of the Tyrolese. The Bavarians have taken 500 prisoners and found considerable stores in Salzburg.

Enns, 4 May 1809

The Duke of Danzig, who arrived at Salzburg on 30 April, instantly caused one brigade to march towards Kufstein and another towards Rastatt, in the direction of the Italian roads. His advanced guard, pursuing General Jellacic, forced him from the strong post at Colling.

Saint Polten, 9 May 1809

Marshal Duke of Danzig is marching from Saltzburg to innsbruck, in order to attack in the rear the detachment which the enemy has still in the Tyrol, and which troubled the frontiers of Bavaria.

Vienna, 19 May 1809

Marshal Duke of Danzig has advanced to Innsbruck. He encountered, on the 14th at Worgl, General Chasteler and his Tyrolese, overthrew him and took 700 prisoners and 11 pieces of artillery.

Ebersdorf, 24 May 1809

Marshal Duke of Danzig is master of the Tyrol, and entered Innsbruck on the 19th, the whole territory having submitted. On the 11th, the Duke of Danzig had taken the strong position of the Strub Pass, with seven cannon and 600 men. On the 13th, after defeating Chasteler in the position of Worgl, putting him to flight and taking all this artillery, he pursued him past Rattenberg, where the wretched fugitive was indebted for his safety only to the speed of his horse. At the same time, General Delroy raised the blockade of the fortress of Kufstein, forming his junction with the troops commanded in person by the Duke of Danzig. This marshal greatly praises the conduct of Major Palm, Battalion Chief of the Bavarian light infantry, of Lt. Col. Hapermann, of Capt. Haider, of Capt. Bernard of the 2rd Regiment of the Bavarian Light Horse, of his aides-de-camp Montmaire, Maingarnaud and Montelegir, and of Squadron Chief Fontange, general staff officer. Chasteler entered Tyrol with a handful of wretched men, and preached insurrection, plunder and murder. He saw several thousand Bavarions and 100 French soldiers slaughtered before his eyes. He even encouraged the murders by his own praises and stirred up all the cruelty of these mountain boors. Among the French who persihed in this massacre were about 60 Belgians, all countrymen of Chasteler. That wretch, loaded with the favours of the Emperor, to whom he owed the restoration of his property, amounting to several millions, is insusceptible to the feeling of gratitude, as well as to the affection which even barbarians entertain for the people of the country of their birth. The Tyrolese detest the men whose treacherous conduct instigated them to rebellion, and thereby brought upon them all its consequent evils. The rage against Chasteler is so great, that when, after what happened at Worgl, he took refuge at Hall, they attacked him with cudgels and gave him such a drubbing that he kept his bed for two days and did not venture to make his appearance, except to request a capitulation: he was told, however, that no capitulation would be granted to a highway robber, upon which he fled towards the mountains of Corinthia. The valley of Ziller was the first that submitted, laid down its arms and gave hostages. The remainder of the territory has folled this example. All the chiefs have ordered the boors to return to their homes, and they are leaving the mountains and returning to their villages. The town of Innsbruck and all the villages have sent deputies to the King of Bavaria to offer pledges of their fidelity, and to supplicate his mercy. The Voralberg, who had been misled by the exasperating proclamations and artifices of the enemy, will follow the example of the Tyrol, and that part of Germany will then be completely freed from all the horrors and misfortuned of popular insurrection.

Imperial Headquarters, Enns, 5 May 1809

By the order of the Emperor, the person named Chasteler, would be general in the service of Austria, the mover of the insurrection in the Tyrol, charged with being the author of the massacres committed on the Bavarian and French prisoners by the insurgents, shall, upon being taken prisoner, be carried immediately before the military commission, and if need be, shall be shot within 24 hours.

Ebersdorf, 26 May 1809

Marshal Duke of Danzig is on great marches, at the head of the Bavarian troops, hastened to join the army near Vienna.

Ebersdorf, 1 June 1809

The Duke of Danzig is at Linz. Tranquility reigns in the Tyrol; cut off by the movements of the Duke of Danzig and the army of Italy, all the Austrians who had imprudently engaged in that point have been destroyed.

Znaim, 12 July 1809

Armistice

Article IV - The detachments of Austrians troops that are in the Tyrol and the Voralberg shall evaucate those two countries.

Vienna, 30 July 1809

The Duke of Danzig entered the Tyrol with 25,000 men. He occupied Lovers on the 28th and has disarmed the inhabitants. He should be, at this time, at Innsbruck.

The 1812 campaign in Russia.

Gumbinnen, 20 June 1812

Towards the end of 1810, Russia altered he political system; the English spirit regained its influence, the Ukase respecting commerce was its first act. In February 1811, five divisions of the Russian army left the Danube by forced marches and proceeded to Poland. By this movement Russia sacrificed Wallachia and Moldavia. When the Russian armies were united and formed, a protest against France appeared, which was transmitted to every cabinet. Russia that way announced that she felt no wish even to save appearances. All means of conciliation were employed on the part of France: all were ineffectual. Towards the close of 1811, six months afterwards, it was clear in France that all this could end only in war; preparations were made.

Vilna, 16 July 1812

The Bavarians, commanded by General Count Gouvion Saint-Cyr, were reviewed by the Emperor on the 14th, at Vilna. Deroy's and Wrede's divisions were very fine. These troops have started their march on Slouboko.

The Battle of Polotsk

16-18 & 22 August 1812

On the 16th of August, the 2d and 6th divisions of the army were placed under the orders of the Marshal Duke of Reggio. The latter, which constisted of the Bavarian troops, commanded by the Colonel General of cuirassiers, Gouvion St. Cyr, was stationed at Polotsk, upon the right bank of the Dwina. The General of Cavalry and Count of the Empire de Wrede, commander of the 2d corps of the Bavarian army, who had the French brigade of the light cavalry Corbineau, consisting of the 7th and 20th chasseurs and the 8th Polish lancers, previously placed at his disposal, was directed to form a chain of the advanced posts on the roads leading to Naval and sebetz. The division Verdier was on the left. In the rear the first division of the Bavarian army, commanded by the General of infantry Deroy, was near Polotsk, supported by the division Legrand, the division of cuirassiers Demoire, and the brigade of light cavalry Casteck. At noon, the advanced guard of a division of the enemy's army, commanded by the Prince de Wittgenstein, attacked the advanced posts on the road to Navel, but was quickly repulsed by Major General Count de Beckers; and, when about five o'clock in the evening, the enemy advanced in great numbers to attack a part of the chain of advanced posts occupied by the division of Verdier, he was, in this case obliged to retire. The 5th and 11th of the line de Kinkel, and the 5th battalion of light infantry de Buteler, judiciously led on by Colonel Baron d'Habermann, who commanded them as a Brigadier, repulsed every attack of the enemy with the greatest bravery. From the movements of the enemy, and his reiterated attempts to advance by the roads of Navel and Sebetz, it was easy to perceive that he had serious intentions of attacking in force the divsion in front of Polotsk. It was in consequence deemed proper to concentrate the secon French division, and that of the general of infantry, within and around Polotsk on both sides of the Polota, to take post in the village of Spass, situated on the right bank of the Polota, half a league in front of the town, in rear of which two bridges had been thrown over the river. Count Wrede was posted along the Polota, and occupied Spass with the first battalion of the 2 regiment of the line, and the first company of musketeers of the 6th regiment of the line; Major General de Vincenti was directed to defend the village. At eight o'clock, the enemy advanced in deep columns on the road to Navel, against Count Wrede's right wing, who immediately caused the batteries Gothard and Gravenreuth to advance on the left of Spass, on a height where they were advantageously posted. He ordered Colonel de Deroy to cover these batteries with the 6th of the line, and to preserve the communications with Spass. He then gave orders to Major General Count de Beckers to cover the right wing of his brigade. Scarcely had the troops and batteries commenced their march, when the enemy began their attack with a fire of musketry and artillery. As the importance of getting possession of Spass could not escape the enemy's General, he directed his chief attacks against that place, but was repulsed by General Vincenti and the troops under his command. At length, being reinforced, he attempted to carry the village at the point of the bayonet, and, in spite of a fire of grape from the batteries which were upon the left of Spass, he succeeded in making the Bavarian troops retire to the church, and the garden of the castle. The 2d battalion of the 6th of the line then retired partly into the Polota, partly beyong that river, and commenced a sharp fire of musketry. At the same time Major General de Vincenti made an impetuous sally from the gargen of the castle, and, charging the enemy, drove him from the village with considerable loss. Nevertheless, he continued his attacks upon Spass, and the entire of the line, and advanced on the road of Sebetz against the French division. The enemy attempted a second time to take Spass by assault, but was repulsed. Major General de Vincent was wounded on this occasion. Colonel Count Spaner, who was reinforced by two companies of the 5th battalion de Buteler, then took the command, and repulsed a third attack with much spirit; but as the troops which occupied Spass were, in the course of a battle of such duration, and supported with so much glory, overcome with fatigue, and very much enfeebled by their losses in killed and wounded in different attacks, Count Wredehad them relieved by four other companies of the battalion of Buteler, and by two companies of the 11th of the line de Kinkel, and committed the defence of the village to Colonel Count Buteler. The enemy, however, continued his attack upon the whole line with much obstinacy. Colonel Deroy, who had opposed to him the whole of the enemy's line from Spass to the point of the wood, and who was appointed to cover the batteries in his rear, performed prodigies of valour with the brave regiment which he commands; but as his division was exhausted, he was reinforced by a battalion of the 5th and 11th of the line, and with these he continued the contest till night. Although the batteries of Gothard and Gravenreuth, which were well served, mowed down with a fire of grape whole columns of Russian troops, they, nevertheless, renewed their attacks incessantly. At length the part of the village nearest the enemy was set on fire at six o'clock in the evening by the grenades, and there were, in consequence, obliged to desist from their attacks on that point. Marshal the Duke of Reggio having been then wounded, Count Gouvion St. Cyre, who had himself been previously wounded by the rebound of a ball, took the chief command, of the 2d and 6th corps. At nightfall, the enemy ceased firing, and occupied themselves in removing the killed and wounded, the number of whom was very great. Prince Wittgenstein fixed his headquarters at Przesimience, which is only a quarter of a league from Spass. At four o'clock on the morning of the 18th, the corps of General Deroy relieved that of General Wrede, which had been much exhausted by the battle of the former days. The enemy remained quiet during the morning; but General Count de St. Cyr, satisfied that they would soon renew the attack, resolved to anticipate dispositions accordingly. The enemy had collected their forces during the night of the 17th, and had increased the number of their guns to 100. Between three and four o'clock on the 18th, a battery of 51 Bavarian guns was established on an height near the village of Spass, and the signal for attack was to be a shot from a 12 pounder. As soon as this was given, the battery commenced a destructive fire of grape, which reached the Castle of Przesimience, where Prince Wittgenstein had his headquarters. When the enemy's advanced guard was routed, the Russian artillery, posted upon the heights of Przesimience, begun to play. Then the 3d and 7th Bavarian regiments of infantry of the line, commanded by Major General Beckers, rushed upon the enemy with charged bayonets. The battalion La Roche took the village of Hamernia, about a league from Spass, in order to menace the enemy's left wing. The battle became general. General Raglovick was wounded severly, and Colonel Zollern succeeded him in the command of his brigade. General Deroy, after he had directed several battalions to attack the enemy at the point of the bayonet, was wounded in the lower part of the belly by a musket ball, and carried off the field. The fire became every moment more violent, and did much execution on both sides. Count Wrede took the command of all the Bavarian troops. He sent the brigade commanded by General de Siebein to support the division of General Legrand. General Sieben and Colonel de Zollern fought with the greatest bravery. The 9th Bavarian infantry regiment of the line attacked the castle of Przesimience, defended by infantry and artillery, by order of General Count St. Cyr. The enemy was driven from it, and having begun to retreat, about eight o'clock in the evening the victory was complete. We took 21 guns, many baggage and ammunition waggons, and 1500 prisoners: 400 killed and wounded remained upon the field; but so many wounded and prisoners have been brought in since from the neighbouring forests, that the loss of the enemy may be computed at 17 or 18,000 men. General Siebein was detached in pursuit, but was wounded. Colonel Baron de Schoebe succeeded him, and continued the attack with much bravery and presence of mind; and the enemy was driven from a defile, whre he seemed inclined to take up a position. Thus the brave Bavarian warriors have, on the banks of the Dwina, erected their banners with laurels. In the plains of Polotsk, they have answered the expectations of the greatest hero of the age. This brave army is the pride of the nation, which might loudly express its joy, if that joy were not alloyed by the grief necessarily attendant on the loss of so many brave men who have fallen in their country's cause. The number of killed in the Bavarian army on the 16th, 17th, and 19th of August, amounts to 144: that of the wounded 1136; and the missing 715. Among the killed there are two Generals, two Colonels, and a Lt. Colonel; two Generals, three Colonels, two Lt. Colonels, and 11 Majors, were wounded. The Russians had a great number of Generals Killed. The infantry General Deroy has since died of his wounds.

On the 20th of Octerber 1812, General Wittgenstein would defeat Marshal St. Cyr and General Wrede during the second battle of Polotsk.

5 December 1812

His Majesty, in pasing through Vilna, was employed several hours with the Duke of Bassano. His Majesty travelled inncognito, in a single sledge, with and under the name of the Duke of Vicence. He examined the fortifiactions of Prague, surveyed Warsaw, and remained there for several hours unknown.

1813/14 Campaign

Letter From Berthier to the Commanding Officer of the Bavarians

Erfurt, 24 October 1813

The King, your Master, forgetting what the Emperor has done for him, has declared war against France. Under such circumstances the Bavarian troops that are with the army should be disarmed and made prisoners of war, but that would be contrary to the confidence that the troops under his orders should have in him. In consequence , Sir, His Majesty's intention is that you should collect your battalion. You shall have magazines given you, four day's provisions, and you shall set out from hence to proceed to Coburg on Bamberg where you will take your orders from the Minister of His Majesty the King of Bavaria. It would likewise be equally contrary to the sentiments of honour and loyalty that you should bear arms against France. In consequence it is the Emperor's wish that you and your officers should give you word of honour that you nor your soldiers shall serve against France for one year.

Berthier

Battle of Hanau

30 October 1813

Napoleon defeats Wrede

A Bavarian-Austrian division entered Frankfort at noon on the 30th, but on the approach of the scouts of the French army it retired on the left bank of the Main, after having destroyed the bridge. On 2 November the French rearguard evacuatedFrankfort and marched on the Nidda. The same day, at five o'clock in the morning, the Emperor entered Mayence. It is supposed among the people that General Wrede has been the author and principal agent of the defection of Bavaria. That General had been loaded with favours by the Emperor.

Battle of Montereau

18 February 1814

Napoleon defeats the Allies

His Majesty having been informed that the corps of General Wrede two Bavarian divisions and of the Wurttembergers was in position at Montereau, headed there with the corps of the Duke of Belluno and that of General Gerard, the Guard on foot as well as on horse. At this moment we have about 3000 Bavarians and Wurttembergers prisoners, one of which is a general, and five cannon.

Battle of Bar-Sur-Aube

27 February 1814

Oudinot defeated by Wittgenstein/Wrede

Battle of Arcis-Sur-Aube

20 March 1814

Napoleon(28,000 troops) defeated by Schwarzenberg(80,000 troops)

11 April 1814

Napoleon abdicates

thanks,

barry