Oaks from a Bag of Tinnies

[Mike]

While sorting through a ziplock with about 10 tinnies and other assorted Imperial & European pins in it ...I found these Oaks. They do have nice detail but ..I can't lock them in.

I was thinking along the lines of Imperial ...what's interesting is I posted these and Bob Hritz posted a matching set that he bought with a group of Imperial Awards.

Have any of you seen this style before ?

[Mike]

back

[Mike]

side

[Stogieman]

Mike, are these silver, or gilded? Any content marks? They look cast??

[Mike]

Mike, are these silver, or gilded? Any content marks? They look cast??

Hi Stogie ! They are heavily "gilded" ..like a very rich Gold almost like the Gold Party Badge ("Fire Gilded?") and no casting marks that I can see or ..pock marks from a cheap cast. Not marked at all. At first , I thought repro but then , I started wondering if they could have been a replacement set made in the late 30's (early 40's) for an Imperial Award . They are not lightweight and , you can see the nice job they did soldering the "paper-clip" to the back --not sloppy at all.

I've had them for 3 years now ? (I forget) and Bob's is the only other set I've ever seen .

There has to be someone out there that knows what they belong to ..or can explain them.

[saschaw]

Well, from style they seem to be for a Prussian Red Eagle Order IInd class or for a Order Pour le Merite, but I've no idea how to tell if these are originals or at least old ones, or fakles. If they are old, not bad...

[dond]

Anybody have some period oaks to compare?

[Alex K]

Anybody have some period oaks to compare?

Here's one for sale on e-bay at the moment $36000, authenticity, anyones guess

regards

Edited May 22, 2008 by Alex K

[Alex K]

Here's one for sale on e-bay at the moment $36000, authenticity, anyones guess

regards

reverse

Edit apparently this has been discussed on another web-site and it appears to be total plonk. however it is a reasonable example of an imperial style of PLM oaks

Edited May 23, 2008 by Alex K

[Alex K]

Well, from style they seem to be for a Prussian Red Eagle Order IInd class

If these are genuine then they are a different shape, more akin to WWII

Unfortunately don't remember which site I found it

[hipnos]

While sorting through a ziplock with about 10 tinnies and other assorted Imperial & European pins in it ...I found these Oaks. They do have nice detail but ..I can't lock them in.

I was thinking along the lines of Imperial ...what's interesting is I posted these and Bob Hritz posted a matching set that he bought with a group of Imperial Awards.

Have any of you seen this style before ?

Dont forget the Z?hringen Lion order with oaks...

Miguel

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Miguel:

These oakleaves are totally unlike known genuine Zahringen Lion oakleaves [of which there are two (2) types]. In my opinion, unfortunately, the oakleaves presented at the start of this thread are a modern-made cast copy of PLM or RAO oakleaves.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Mike]

Hello Miguel:

These oakleaves are totally unlike known genuine Zahringen Lion oakleaves [of which there are two (2) types]. In my opinion, unfortunately, the oakleaves presented at the start of this thread are a modern-made cast copy of PLM or RAO oakleaves.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi Schie?platz , Have you ever seen the same exact style as this offered for sale as a reproduction before ? I'd hate to label it as a fake without proof and then years later find out that they had made some replacement PLM Oaks while the TR was in Business ..sometimes the easy answer ends up costing in the long run .

Besides ...we see fake PLMs , but I don't remember seeing a repro set of Oaks like these ...and since no one else has chimed in , it looks like no one else has either.

If they were making these back in the 60's or ..even today ...we'd have seen a lot more than Bob Hritz's and my examples for sale ..and mine showing up in a bag of tinnies like that ? I didn't pay much for that bag at all so ...the Oaks were free. And , I don't plan on selling them anyway ..just thought it would be interesting to find if anyone had seen another set like them.

I posted this on WAF as well ...almost 500 Views and except for Bob posting his ..no other examples and no definitive answers

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Mike:

Unfortunately, most forgeries are offered as genuine pieces, so to find a set of these offered as a forgery would be rather difficult.

Stogieman mentioned that they look cast (originals were die-struck I believe).

Also, the PLM listed above is a forgery, and the oakleaves are also a forgery. Although they are not identical to yours, it shows that such forgeries exist.

I have seen GOLD RAO oakleaves which I believed were cast (and a forgery).

The workmanship of your piece is consistant with casting (originals should be die-struck in my opinion). The loop also has had the wire ends roughly-cut with snips and unfinished (another sign not consistant with pre-1918 era workmanship, as original loops usually had the wire ends rounded and polished).

Although I can't "prove" that these aren't "real", they are not consistant with known genuine pieces.

Best regards,

"SPM"

I wish that I had better news regarding these.

[Mike]

The thing is ...I've never said pre 1918. I'm wondering if they were producing PLM's in the late 30's and early 40's.

Also we've all seen it before ..every fake ends up showing up on a Reddick or Kels or Reenactor website at some point ..Or at Shows.

The fake set shown with the PLM has the "mirror image" ..pretty detailed casting to include that. Was that Oak set ID'd without any doubt as a fake?

Back in 1970 I remember one dealer telling me that if I ever saw an Imperial EK with an LDO number ..it was a Fake.

Oh well .....

[Les]

Mike,

If you can wait a couple of days, I'll root out and send you a photo of S&L oaks the firm made for their post WWII PlMs. The S&L ones are smaller than originals, are gilded bronze, and have the same type of back that's dished out. The originals show stamping on both sides, in addition to other details. Period "oaks" as already mentioned, were the same on the Rot Adler, etc.

Les

[Mike]

Mike,

If you can wait a couple of days, I'll root out and send you a photo of S&L oaks the firm made for their post WWII PlMs. The S&L ones are smaller than originals, are gilded bronze, and have the same type of back that's dished out. The originals show stamping on both sides, in addition to other details. Period "oaks" as already mentioned, were the same on the Rot Adler, etc.

Les

Thanks for that Les ..now we're getting somewhere. I should have known you'd have some info on this ! Have you ever seen any PLM's produced during the War (WW2 of course) as well ? Since S&L has a track record of using their old War Time Dies again in the 1950's (Type "B" RK)..I wonder if there might be something we've overlooked , or never addressed before.

[medalnet]

Reading through the thread inspired me to update my web page and show a sequence of oak leafs from 1820th to the last official Silver gilt version (1916-1918):

Prussian Oak Leaf Study

Enjoy

[medalnet]

...here an oak leaf found on a Godet/Schickle PlM with Oak Leaf from the 1930/40th:

[Mike]

Thanks for posting them ...I didn't realize the patterns differed so much

[Les]

These were on a a bronze gilt PlM made between the wars, however, the Eichenlaube tested out at 18 karat gold. Andreas has seen these before....

I'll put the S&L ones when I get time to photograph them this holiday weekend.

Les

[medalnet]

I do remember this one very well. Oak leaf is certainly a good old one, made before 1916 or on special request.

[Mike]

Dietrich just checked 2 War Time Catalogs he has ( S&L and Deumer ) and although they have Imperials listed, he said there were not any PLM's. I guess If there were replacements made during the War ..maybe they were only custom ordered. ?

Les ...even if you can't find that picture, it sounds like these are S&L since you said they were small . I can clearly see the size difference even though the design differs.

I still wonder why we don't see more of these ...what type of profit could they make from doing a small "run" of them unless all the fake PLM's they sold came with Oaks ?

Edited May 25, 2008 by Mike

[Les]

Here's my S&L oaks compared to the one's Mike posted at the beginning of the thread. Fronts first. They look almost identical.

Les

[Les]

Now, the reverse side. They aren't exactly identical from this side. The loops are clipped on the edges, and the solder work isn't all that great.

S&L crosses show a range of strike quality that may be the result of die wear from the sheer quantity of these post war copies made. Whether oaks were made for the series, or borrowed from some other medal copies isn't all that certain. The ones I have appear to be cast, and may have been copied directly from some other postwar copies.