Soviet A Slava 2th class & Bravery group

[hipnos]

I?ve just bought this little group. As it is authentic...??, I?m researching for the Battle records if possible.

Name is ver Strange: "Papu", and i wastold that the first name is a very obsolete one...

Any comment will be wellcome

Regards

miguel

[Stogieman]

Hi Miguel, I believe that's actually a Third Class, not second.

[RedMaestro]

I agree that it is indeed a 3rd class. Shouldn't the bravery medal be mounted before the combat merit medal? Also, I can't read the booklet well from the picture, but it looks like the date is 1955! Can you please post better scans?

Thanks!

-Alex

[Stogieman]

Yes, precedence is wrong as well.... book too small for me to gauge, we have others much better at that & they speak Russian.

[Guest Rick Research]

Bad bad baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

There is NO reason--

no GOOD reason

for 3 WW2 awards to be listed out of senority in a 1955 "G" Orders Book, without awards dates...

and there is even LESS reason for the awards and their ribbons to MIMIC the entires in the bad Book, when that is not the precedence they were worn in.

Somebody has slapped together a Frankenstein "group" probably.

The name and Orders Book are the absolute worst thing to attempt research with, since those are most likely worthless scrubbed re-entries.

You would have to TRY researching the Glory 3rd from its serial number alone and see if the other 2 medals actually belonged to the same person-- whatever his name really was.

Glories are usually worth researching anyway.

But the odds of this being a real group are about 1:1,000. This is typical circa 1993 flea market stuff.

[RedMaestro]

I thought this might be the case. I feel like I have seen this group somewhere, though I don't remember where. I didn't take a close look at it then, but I noticed two things. I remember the out-of-order medals and the weird stains by the staples. Why is there discoloration there?

-Alex

[ANZAC]

Yes, slapped together group with corresponding numbers added into the book (poorly I migh add). It is highly unlikely that they belong to the same person.

Brendan

[Stogieman]

The discoloration around the staples might be from when someone used a chemical wash to remove whatever was original to the book. The process is often called "washing", sometimes referred to as "scrubbing".... (they do it with checks you leave in your mailbox too BTW)

Once they have removed the original writing, numbers whatever.... they fill in what they want!

[ANZAC]

Here is a genuine booklet with Glory 3 and Bravery Medal for comparison. First inside cover...

Brendan

[ANZAC]

And the award entry page........

[hipnos]

And the award entry page........

Fisrt of all: I?m want to say 3thd class, of couse... All the others things you say... &

Miguel.......

PS/ Not a good end of week

[hipnos]

What you means is that it?s uncertain that the precedence order (wrong as you say), match exactly the booklet inscription...?

I understand that what you say it?s improbably that the guy won his awards in the same precedence order they shows in the booklet?

Well I have never think about the prceedence of the military merit and the bravery...it seem reasonable that bravery cames before...

If you have time I would have a precedence list of USSR awards...By the way I was thinking that in campaign medals and others similar...the precedence is no existent or as the medals were awarded...it?isn?t??

Thanks I?m return to the school with all this stuff...

regards

Miguel

[ANZAC]

What you means is that it?s uncertain that the precedence order (wrong as you say), match exactly the booklet inscription...?

I understand that what you say it?s improbably that the guy won his awards in the same precedence order they shows in the booklet?

Well I have never think about the prceedence of the military merit and the bravery...it seem reasonable that bravery cames before...

If you have time I would have a precedence list of USSR awards...By the way I was thinking that in campaign medals and others similar...the precedence is no existent or as the medals were awarded...it?isn?t??

Thanks I?m return to the school with all this stuff...

regards

Miguel

Hi Miguel

first off the award booklet entries are incorrect, in other words fake.

Secondly the precedence of the award bar is wrong and yes there is a documented precedence of how soviets awards are mounted.

Thirdly it is unlikely, since the award entries are fake, that this group belonged to the same person and only research will tell you that.

Fourthly the awards themselves appear genuine but as always it's hard to tell without definitive scans or photos.

The award book I scanned for you is from a genuine group with genuine entries. There is a whole topic on award booklets that can blow your mind for the person who is not to experienced in such things.

hope this helps.

Brendan

[Lapa]

...Well I have never think about the prceedence of the military merit and the bravery...it seem reasonable that bravery cames before...

Miguel,

The Soviet (and any nation issuing award for that matter) had a well established order of precedence for their awards (orders and medals). I'll see if I can dig it from somewhere.

Marc

[Alfred]

Miguel,

please post a better picture of the entries in the award book. In some cases the first entries are correct and some forger ad a few more awards to make the group more valuable. All is possible.

The date 1995 for the first entry Order of Glory III 702.391 seems to be most likely possible.

The military merit medal is from 1947 and the

Bravery medal from 1944/1945.

Sometimes the soldier had two award books and the awards were reunite in one book. Sometimes (rare) the soldier add the awards himself in one book.

If you are interested in research, research the Order of Glory 3rd class with it?s serial number.

regards

Andreas

Edited May 31, 2008 by Alfred

[hipnos]

Miguel,

please post a better picture of the entries in the award book. In some cases the first entries are correct and some forger ad a few more awards to make the group more valuable. All is possible.

The date 1995 for the first entry Order of Glory III 702.391 seems to be most likely possible.

The military merit medal is from 1947 and the

Bravery medal from 1944/1945.

Sometimes the soldier had two award books and the awards were reunite in one book. Sometimes (rare) the soldier add the awards himself in one book.

If you are interested in research, research the Order of Glory 3rd class with it?s serial number.

regards

Andreas

I?m already send the number of the slava 3c. for research. Sorry for the piocs but with 110k is difficult to have a clear pic of the scans. Perhaps I can send it to you by normal email, if you send me your private adress.

Thanks To all for your time and knowledge.

Miguel

[Lapa]

I?m already send the number of the slava 3c. for research. Sorry for the piocs but with 110k is difficult to have a clear pic of the scans. Perhaps I can send it to you by normal email, if you send me your private adress.

Thanks To all for your time and knowledge.

Miguel

Miguel,

Post individual scans of the items, that way they are all larger and clearer. When posting orders or medals, no need to show the suspension, that is rarely the interesting part

Marc

[RedMaestro]

Miguel,

I was looking on ebay and I happened to find the page for the auction of this group. The seller only sells fakes. He has been putting together groups of rare, low numbered medals for quite a while now. He has been banned from ebay a number of times because of complaints about his items, but every time he just makes a new account and continues selling. No matter what his account name is though, he is still very easy to recognize. All of his auctions have the same style of photographs, text formatting, and item descriptions, and he is based out of Australia. Look out for this guy in the future, and stay away!

-Alex

Edited May 31, 2008 by RedMaestro

[ANZAC]

Miguel,

I was looking on ebay and I happened to find the page for the auction of this group. The seller only sells fakes. He has been putting together groups of rare, low numbered medals for quite a while now. He has been banned from ebay a number of times because of complaints about his items, but every time he just makes a new account and continues selling. No matter what his account name is though, he is still very easy to recognize. All of his auctions have the same style of photographs, text formatting, and item descriptions, and he is based out of Australia. Look out for this guy in the future, and stay away!

-Alex

By the way I'm out of Australia It's not me and I sometimes sell on e and my items have same paragraphs and style due to easy formatting.

Brendan

[matteti]

For reference, here is an order of precedence document I built myself from various sources (including the Red Bible and some websites). It shows the order of precedence both for awards on Uniforms (with position) and for ribbons bar.

Edited May 31, 2008 by matteti

[RedMaestro]

For reference, here is an order of precedence document I build myself from various sources (including the Red Bible and some websites). It shows also the order of precedence both for awards on Uniforms (with position) and for ribbons bar.

Great document! Thanks

-Alex

[hipnos]

For reference, here is an order of precedence document I build myself from various sources (including the Red Bible and some websites). It shows also the order of precedence both for awards on Uniforms (with position) and for ribbons bar.

Thanks for all and specially for the preference order pdf.

regards

miguel

[hipnos]

Miguel,

please post a better picture of the entries in the award book. In some cases the first entries are correct and some forger ad a few more awards to make the group more valuable. All is possible.

The date 1995 for the first entry Order of Glory III 702.391 seems to be most likely possible.

The military merit medal is from 1947 and the

Bravery medal from 1944/1945.

Sometimes the soldier had two award books and the awards were reunite in one book. Sometimes (rare) the soldier add the awards himself in one book.

If you are interested in research, research the Order of Glory 3rd class with it?s serial number.

regards

Andreas

Here you hace a obv. pic

miguel

[hipnos]

Here you have the rev.

Thanks

Miguel

[Eric Gaumann]

Ugh. What a shame. Not to mention the hack job on the ribbon bar. Just to make it "match". Like we wouldn't notice?