The wearing of Dutch, Belgian, French etc. awards on german WWII medalbars

[Herr General]

Was one allowed to wear his Dutch, French, Belgium etc awards in German medalgroups during World War Two? I'm thinking of diplomats, higher officers, nobility etc.

[Ed_Haynes]

Foreign diplomats (if any) in German or German diplomats wearing enemy awards?

[Herr General]

Foreign diplomats (if any) in German or German diplomats wearing enemy awards?

German diplomats and other persons who received these awards in peace time.

[Ed_Haynes]

Not answering your question (and an interesting on it is), but from the outbreak of hostilities in 1914 all British (meaning "empire") officials (civilian and military) and even civilians under British control (regardless of passport) were forbidden to wear "enemy" awards, and local officials had to hunt them down and tell them how naughty such actions were (much to the frustration of local officials who, really, thought they had more important things to do). One poor Swiss nun in India got hunted down and fingler-waggingly cautioned not to wear that nasty German award (a Red Cross Medal, as I recall). Local government were not happy, on ever many levels.

[Guest Rick Research]

Per regulations, yes. But in actual practice, it was more shades of gray, open to the wearer's inclinations-- and whether any body higher up than him kicked up a fuss over it.

Example: pre-1914 war Tsarist Russian awards? Banned for wear 1914-18. Some recipients might NEVER have worn them again. Others put them back on again (bling is bling, after all, and exotic stuff is always more attractive ). then along came the Nazis and their Master Race madness. That scared off some wearers. Yet others persisted in wearing TSARIST awards because they considered the "old" Russians not at all the same as the "new" Russian BOLSHEVIKS. hardly in line with Nazi racist policies, but Generals and so on can always get by with more leeway than lower orders can. Tsarist Russia, after all, was not the enemy 1941-45.

I can't illustrate more specific examples, with names, than this one:

Vizeadmiral zur See Joachim Lietzmann quite cheerfully continued wearing his Danish Order of the Dannebrog (next to last ribbon) after 1940:

But when Italy changed sides, he covered over his Italian Order of the Crown:

[saschaw]

Example: pre-1914 war Tsarist Russian awards? Banned for wear 1914-18.

Banned as British awards were, weren't they? Some just didn't mind, not even in 1918, not even in uniform. Here's Feldwebel-Leutnant Willy Schulze in 1918, wearing the uniform of J?ger-Bataillon Nr. 3. The last award on his medal bar is the British African General Service Medal with clasp "West Africa 1908".

PS:

from what I know only enemy's awards were banned to wear, but Belgium, the Netherlands etc. were not enemies. An e.g. Dutch decoration might have been worn at any time.

Edited July 23, 2008 by saschaw

[Bernd D]

I think this picture us a little bit better. Colonel Schultze with his medal bar, 1944.

[Roeland]

Hello gents,

and how about General Leuze, he continued to wear the commander grade of the crown order of Yugoslavia throughout entire WW2.(and this medal actually made him more famous, because that is what most people know him from). I guess germans in ww2 could wear foreign medals even if the country was occupied by Germany. I think it would not be a problem with a spange or WW1 order(but would you dear wearing a French medal in nazi Germany?).

here as oberst:

Generalmajor:

Edited July 23, 2008 by Roeland

[Stijn David]

Hello

Very interesting question => and interesting observations. I think however that Belgium was for Germany considered a enemy, as the belgian army was fighting against the German army, Belgian territroy was occupyed for the most part, etc....

I think that Belgian awards where not worn anymore generaly during the war years by the Germans. I am researching the practice of the German awards towards Belgian civilians for 1914 and i can already share a very interesting observation:

* German awards where rendered towards Belgian civilians in rather large quantity's (but what is a large quantity offcoarse) before 1914. (the same is also true on the otehr way arround => quiet a few Belgian orders where awarded towards Germans)

* There is no trace to be found at this point that any German awards where granted to be worn anymore in 1914 (altough in the very first months of that eyar) it must have been so that quite a few German awards where awarded towards Belgians and that my fellow citizens did ask for eprmission to wear these awards officially.

I think the Belgian governement did also did officially forbid the wear of awards from enemy states in 1914-1918.

It is a fact that the civilians of the newly captured Belgian territory of EUpen-Malmedy where no longer allowed to wear there won awards of what belgium considered a foreign country (read => Germany) in 1921.

So a German soldier who was born in EUpen before 1900, who did do his duty with his homecountry's army (for example => Prussian army unit) and did win the Iron cross 2 nd. class, etc..... was forbidden in 1921 to wea rhis earned award officially after that date as he was now a Belgian civilian.

It is a complex thing for sure. And depending on country one should best make the following distinction, for example:

* German awards towards Belgians:

pre 1914 : no problem to wear them iff there was a official 'royal decree' that granted its wear

1914 - 1918 : unclear => most probably officially forbidden, it would certainly not be cosher for any belgian soldier to wear a award of a now enemy state

after 1918 into the Interbellum: the public opinion was not good about wear of wearing awards of enemy states

once relations normalized => wear could be done again, unproven iff this did happen indeed for awards that where rendered before 1914.

* Belgian awards towards Germans

Quite a few awarded before 1914 and even into 1914 (i have unpublished proof of this found in german archives)

1914 - 1918 : probably forbidden as Belgium was a enemy state

after 1918 into the inetrbellum : unclear at this point => still to be researched

once relations normalized => wearing allowed again? => still to be researched

Cordial greetings,

ps: fact is that in Belgium the history of once friendly relations between Germany and Belgium where forgotten after 1918 and that still very few research on this subject untill this day does exist. Wich can cause the impression that the relation Germany / belgium always was very cool => wich is a misinterpretation of history as before 1914 relations where very normal !!! :rolleyes:

Edited July 24, 2008 by Stijn David

[Claudio]

Interesting thread...

In this ribbon bar of mine I see Belgian order at the end... and also some more other foreign orders as well. Still unidentified...

ciao,

Claudio

Edited July 24, 2008 by Claudio

[Claudio]

This full size medal bar was the big brother of the previously shown ribbon bar... too bad I couldn't get it! Aaargghh.... It's also my favourite Ordensjuwelier... GODET!

Edited July 24, 2008 by Claudio

[Stijn David]

Hi Claudio,

Thank you for joining in => very interesting medal & ribon bar.

The Belgian order is the "order of Leopold II". Could you please make a picture of the front of that order as there does exist 2 types of these:

1) Freestate Congo issue's

2) Belgian issue's

Iff it should be a Freestate COngo issue then we should find this person very fast (as only 6 knightscrosses of this grade and model where awarded towards Germans), if it is a belgian piece then we have quite a few more

It is a knightscross.

That order is either rendered before 1914 or in the Interbellum. I have all issue's of these towards Germans, so that one should be ID'ed when i have listed (and published) them

So stay tuned + please feel free to send me a PM about it

[Guest Rick Research]

This one has eluded me, since so far the only Rolls we've had to compare are the Saxon Albert and the Ernestines. As an (E) officer, he doesn't show awards after 1914 anyplace. I'll PM you my "best suspect" since we don't know eher that medal bar is-- and there is no point in broadcasting free Value Adding information to strangers Out There.

The peacetime commander grade Bulgarian St. Alexander and pinback Hungarian Merit Order suggest he was attached to a German military attach? in one of those countries, but I haven't found a Hauptmann (E) or Major (E) in the January 1939 list SHOWN as being "attached" to one of those embassies.

If you've got a complete list of German army Lieutenants who had the "BLII.4" (as it is in Rank Lists) then it SHOULD be possible to finally identify him by triangulation. Exclude all naval officers, Bavarians, and W?rttembergers. He should be listed as a "Prussian" Lieutenant, even if he was in one of the Thuringian regiments. There is a remote (freakish) chance that he might have been a severely under-decorated (by his home kingdom) Saxon officer.

[Stijn David]

Hello Ricky,

I have searched and searched etc .... and can now confirm that your suspect is NOT to be found between the awardees of the Belgian Leopold II order before the outbreak of WWI

So there is still a chance => in that way that he did earn this award in the so called 'Interbellum', i haven't found those lists yet however => so that is a long shot at this point.

I will be of some help offocurse for you my dear friend and the famous research gnomes will send you some names to check

Oh yes, on the subject => the last date a German did get a Belgian order was 15 July 1914. And as we know the German troops did attack the Neutral Luxemburg on 01 August 1914 and they did cross the Belgian border on 04 AUgust 1914.

These historical data do actually mean that the awarding of Belgian orders towards its German neighbour did continue till the war broke out !!! The rest is as we know history ...

Cordial greetings,

[Guest Rick Research]

It has to be a pre-First World War award because that grade of Leopold was only given to Lieutenants, yes? He was a Captain during the war (Saxon/Ernestine combination).

Given the Wehrmacht 12 rather than an 18, he must have joined the German army around 1907-08, maybe in 1906 if he resigned in 1919 rather than waiting to be discharged in 1920. With two years as a cadet before being commissioned, that would narrow down the list of "suspects" to Leutnants (2nd Lieutnants) only, who could only have been decoirated by Belgium between the years 1910-14 only.

The King of Belgium was "Chef" of Hannoverian Dragoon Regiment 16, suggesting that as a connection. It was an entirely noble regiment, stuffed full of vons. Infantry Regiment 77 also seems to have had "BLII4s" before the war...

but I haven't found any match with the Saxon and Ernestine awards. This suggests an "invisible" award made DURING the first 6 months of 1914 that never got printed in the last peacetime Rank List of May 1914.

[Stijn David]

Hi RIck and others

Yes, when i look at the award practice of the belgian orders awarded towards German subjects the knights grade of the Order of the Leopold II was mostly awarded towards the rank of 'Leutnant' guys. I have sent you a list that should help you ID the former owner of Claudio's bar.

You are also correct in that way that quite a few of these little underestimated awards are given towards both the named regiments ;-)

The sent list does contain 49 names (there where yes, exactly 49 Order of Leopold II's awarded towards Germans between 1910 and 1914 and yes my list is complete (the Belgian (secret) archive is still 100 % coplete what this matter does concern !!!)

Looking forward towards what you find RIcky :cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

AAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I find NO match, army OR navy.

That means:

1916+ Ernestine from the missing Meiningen roll while he was still an Oberleutnant (though this removes most of the suspects)

AND

1918 Albert while a Captain (and many missing as Saxony fell apart and stopped publishing awards)

AND

(as if the above is not enough)

A "von" from a family so numerous that thanks to the Prussian/Third Reich practice of never listing FIRST names I can NOT pick him out in 1939.

There are some names on Stijn's list that have NO job title, so will try among those guys next.

Extremely frustrating, since I have ZERO doubt that the group is original and not a parts fraud.

Like Santa Claus, he exists... I just can't PROVE it...

YET.

[Claudio]

@ Rick and David: what makes this research even more frustrating is the fact that the seller on ebay knew the family name of this officer, but he didn't want to tell me out of respect of the family's desire to remain discrete... He just told me that this in WWII staff officer was coming from a family with great military traditions whose many of their members they reached high ranks in the German or Imperial army.

I know, it doesn't help a lot, but I just wanted to share it, to show how ridiculously scared are some German families of their heritage and history legacy.

Ciao,

Claudio

[NavalMark]

Decorations of Vizeadmiral Werner Grassmann.

-Belgium, Leopold-Order military Knightscross, awarded 19.10.1912 to Leutnant zur See Werner Grassmann, S.M.S VICTORIA LOUISE

-Siam, Order of the White Elephant, Knightscross, awarded 10.8.1915 to Oberleutnant zur See Werner Grassmann, S.M.S. VICTORIA LOUISE.

Regards

NavalMark

[Stijn David]

Hello Navalmark,

Thank you very much for showing the medalbar of Grassmann. It is a beauty, thats for sure.

Could you mayby show a close up on the Leopold II Order?

Werner Grassman was actually awarded his BLII (Knight) with the date of 14/08/1912. This date is the actual date the belgian king did sign the royal decree in wich Grassman amongst otehrs did receive this belgian order. The date you name is most probably the date wich appeared in the Marine Verordnungsblatt or something similar => the actual award date is 14/08/1912.

Cordial greetings and thanks :cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: That's very interesting!

Grassmann was the only Jewish admiral in the Kriegsmarine. He was retired at the same time D?nitz replaced Raeder, and I've always wondered whether it was precisely because his protector was gone (Raeder was notoriously unsympathetic to anybody, Aryan or otherwise) or if Grassmann's health was indeed responsible. He "died" in October 1943.

As a Nuremberg Laws "full Jew" (convert) Grassmann's existence under the Third Reich can never have been easy-- and would have required the same "exemption" signed by Hitler that Raeder obtained for RETIRED Konteradmiral zS Karl K?hlenthal (1872-1969). K?hlenthal was half-Jewish, with a Jewish wife-- and two sons.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Rick Research

[NavalMark]

Hello Stijn,

yes, the date is from my Excel-file with the dates from the Marineverordnungsblatt and so a "little to late".

Regards

NavalMark ( alias CSForrester )

[xxx]

interesting stuff, remember the book from leon degrelle where he mention a belgian WW 1 vet who was wearing his british WW 1 decoration next to a WW 2 iron cross on the eastfront.