EK 1939 WW2 1941 Russian Robbery and Murder Medal Iron Cross

[JapanX]

All crosses in this thread (and many other threads) are fakes, of course .

+

They have nothing to do with two pieces that were showed by Kalinin in his notorious article in BDOS

and russian journal "Miniature" in 1992

[JapanX]

Same goes for this cross

[JapanX]

The real question is if the Kalinin crosses are fakes.

As per today we don`t have hard proof.

What we have is a veteran of 7th counter-propaganda unit of the Leningrad Front colonel Basistov

[JapanX]

In his book

he says that such crosses indeed were made

Only two lines actually.

Unique technique was used at Leningrad front for propaganda of enemy forces - were produced replicas of the German Order "Iron Cross" with the inscription "For the robbery and murder."

That`s it.

Nothing more.

It`s said that in private interview he said that Moscow react very negatively to this "project" and all crosses were destroyed.

Only few survived (were kept as souvenirs by propagandists from unit 7th).

Of course this is not a definitive proof (only memories and no docs to back them up).

Definitive proof will be papers of unit 7th regarding manufacturing this cross.

These papers should be (if these crosses were indeed manufactured) in the Central Archive of RF Ministry of Defence.

Until this very day no such papers are known.

But then again - nobody was trying to find them either.

Edited August 18, 2014 by JapanX

[JapanX]

All discussions of these crosses are alike

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/23097-russian-fur-raub-und-mord-iron-cross-found/

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425350

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212764

http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/showthread.php?t=288198

http://www.schatzsucher.de/Foren/archive/index.php?t-13209.html

etc, etc, etc .

1) Fake crosses (in the sense that they are not crosses that were shown in Kalinin article) are discussed

2) Cost of production, rationality of production of such crosses during war, potential efficiency of such propaganda material etc, etc, etc are discussed. Strangely enough discussion groups usually forget that they are not a soviet contrpropaganda unit in 1942 and, if it comes to that, they have no knowleadge of how such soviet units operated in 1942.

3) Short verdict at the end: these crosses are fantasy pieces.

P.S. Potential efficiency of 2) was recently tested in Soviet section

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/62774-need-help-with-this/

[Jock Auld]

Japan,

This seems like it has been a pet project of yours, A lot of info there.

When did Col Basistov puplish his book? I am not in any way an expert on human behavour but the two lines he dedicates to it would on the face of it, for me, be a truthful account. My reconing being he has not really given it the light of day as a failed operation not really worthy of much note? I think what would be more important is the dates of publication versus when these things showed up for sale. Only 28 years ago when I was a kid and the EKs were readily available the hobby had not yet developed into a sience of maker marks, round 3s shinkels etc so I think the time line is important. Something like those EK would have been unusual but not a show stopper that it could potentialy be today if it came with the correct marketing from say CG or KW for example. It would have been nice if he had said how many were made but again that is no help I suppose if only a handful survived? If I seen one of these and it was cheap and chearful whether copy of a copy or not I think I would take it just for the workmanship and to have a conversation piece. I wonder who has the dies!?

Jock

[JapanX]

Hi Jock,

This seems like it has been a pet project of yours

Certainly not

When did Col Basistov puplish his book?

In 1999

Here comes full biblio info

Басистов, Юрий Васильевич

Особый театр военных действий : Листовки на фронтах Второй мировой войны / Ю. В. Басистов. - СПб. : Рус.-Балт. информ. центр БЛИЦ, 1999. - 120, [14] с. : ил. ; 28. - На обороте тит. л. авт.: к.ист.н., полк. в отставке Басистов Ю. В. - Библиогр. в подстроч. примеч. -

ISBN 5-86789-093-7 .

Best,

Nick

[Jock Auld]

Thats not fair its all in 'jibberish'. Does his book exist translated, I bet it is a good read!

Jock

[JapanX]

Basistov, Yuri Vasilievich

Special theater of war: Leaflets on the fronts of World War II / V. Basistov. - St. Petersburg. : Russo-Balt. Inf. BLITZ Centre, 1999 - 120, [14]. : Ill. ; 28 - On the back of Titus. L. Authors .: k.ist.n. Retired colonel Basistov V.

ISBN 5-86789-093-7.

Does his book exist translated

I don`t think so

Cheers,

Nick

[Jock Auld]

Nick,

He must have left it quite late in life to publish his memoirs. I was rather hoping it was like a 50s 60s type publication before the 'rot' set in. I don't suppose you happen to know when the first one of these EKs came on the market do you?

Jock

[JapanX]

I am now aware if any of the crosses that Kalinin showed in his articles appeared on the market.

Two crosses that he showed in his articles are currently in the russian pivate collection.

As far as I know first replicas started to appear on the market in the of 90s.

After 2002 (Williamson book) and 2005 (Niemann book) there were more and more of them around ...

[JapanX]

 

As per today we don`t have hard proof.

 

​Now we have 

Straight from the archive 

 

 

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[hagahr]

what dos it say ,,can you translate ?

 

regards kay ( alias Montgomery Burns )

[Chris Boonzaier]

what dos it say ,,can you translate ?

 

regards kay ( alias Montgomery Burns )

​I looked at it and did not see anything I understand to be relevant to the subject, so I ignore it ;-)

[hagahr]

​I looked at it and did not see anything I understand to be relevant to the subject, so I ignore it ;-)

​well I was hoping it would give relevant info ,,,but ,strange it is posted at all ,

thanks regards kay

[Chris Boonzaier]

​well I was hoping it would give relevant info ,,,but ,strange it is posted at all ,

thanks regards kay

​If the poster does not bother to translate the relevant parts... I assume there are none ;-)

[paul wood]

We don't get any votes in the Eurovision Song Contest because we are British (and our songs are crap).

Paul

 

[JapanX]

Your flustration is understandable. 

Well, this is my last post in this thread. 

[hagahr]

 

​No, Kay in fact you were wondering "strange it is posted at all"  

Not to mention that there were two pages of archive docs in my post once and now it is only one (but doubled). 

Translation of two pages of text for chaps with ChrisB attitude?!

I think I`ll pass Kay

Don't pass ,,

you should remember you would do it,,,,,,,, not fore the ones you have arguments with ,,,,,,,you do fore someone who kindly asked you to and is seriously interested .

please ,,regards kay

 

 

 

​

Edited May 14, 2015 by hagahr

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Kay,

Try contacting the guy by PM, as he has made his last post on this thread.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am closing this thread and hiding some of the more silly comments.

1 or two of mine included just to be fair.

If anyone is not happy with that... please feel free to leave.