Soviet Soviet & Eastern Block Quiz

[Christophe]

Socialism vs. Reality

Gentlemen,

(...) So according to UK-laws the "quiz" is the intellectual property of Christophe, (...)

Christian

All in all, a nice happy end!!!! ... and a nice debate!!

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

Manifesto - French version

All in all, a nice happy end!!!! ... and a nice debate!!

Ch.

Dear Christophe,

for you and Bryan, etc. the Manifesto in the French translation:

http://www.marxists.org/francais/marx/work...mfe18470000.htm

It is an important (small) book of German philosophy and specially important to the collectors community of Soviet Awards, because the last words of the "Manifesto" you will find at some of the most important orders of the CCCR .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Your appreciated question ?

[Christophe]

Here I am

Now, a question about spies.

Only two spies have ever been decorated by both the Soviet Union and the United States.

1. Who are they ?

2. What awards did they receive, and when ?

3. For what actions, from both sides ?

Good hunt!!!

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

Here I am

Now, a question about spies.

Only two spies have ever been decorated by both the Soviet Union and the United States.

1. Who are they ?

2. What awards did they receive, and when ?

3. For what actions, from both sides ?

Good hunt!!!

Cheers.

Ch.

Dear Christophe,

brilliant question - and difficult .

But the term "spy" is too unprecise. Who is a "spy"?

Is President Putin a spy, who worked for the KGB in the GDR and received his Soviet long service awards and might have also got some US-Awards as a President of the RF ?

The fact is, that all KGB- or GRU-officers, who changed the front and defected to the USA had all their long service awards (at least) from the CCCP and usually received at least one award from the USA. So, there might be more, than two persons, who received both - SU & US awards - as spies ?

Are the top-generals of the former KGB or GRU, who received their Lenins, RBs, etc. from the CCCP and might have got some US-Awards after 1991, "spies" ? After 1991 a rather large number of former CCCP-Generals (now RF-Generals) got medals or orders from NATO-countries.

Typical awards from the CCCP for spies had been usually a RS and in special cases a RB - also FoN or Octoberrevolution had been possible. But Lenin or HSU had been very rare. Only two German spies got the HSU: Sorge & Mielke (head of the GDR-MfS and more or less a "Birthday-HSU").

I.e.: Here you find a list of all CCCP-Awards Misha Wolf, the famous "spy-chief" of the GDR, received: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13550

And: A spy located in a NATO-country never got his award for taking home. At the Soviet Embassy or at a "save flat" there had been a small cermony, where the spy had been awarded with the order, but neither the decoration, nor the document or the OK had been handed out to the spy .

So, please: What is a "spy" ?

Best regards

Christian

[Christophe]

Good questions and points, Christian. May I precise the question ?

Here, what do we understand as a spy ?

1. These two persons have exerced their "spying" activities for both sides, for the benefit of USSR and USA. In fact they were what we call in French "agents doubles".

2. They "spied" for both sides at the same time, during the same period.

3. their awards, both from USSR and USA, have been awarded precisely for their "spying" activities, for nothing else.

This excludes persons as Putin, who "spied" for one side, and got "honorific" awards only from the other side, as a head of state.

It excludes also people who changed their camp (ex-KGB officers), with long service awards (or other awards) for past activities. We are talking about awards related to the "spying" activities.

We are not talking about the 2 East-German HSUs.

We are not talking here about awards given during a ceremony in a "save flat", but of awards given in official circumstances, by high personalities of both sides.

I hope this is clarified enough to allow you to begin your hunt . Let's see now what you will all find.

I remind the questions, with the precision it is "as spies" that they have been decorated :

Only two spies have ever been decorated (as spies) by both the Soviet Union and the United States.

1. Who are they ?

2. What awards did they receive, and when ?

3. For what actions, from both sides ?

Good hunt.

Ch.

[Christophe]

No one to try or ask more details?

Ch.

[Ed_Haynes]

I think you have us all thinking, looking, searching, puzzling.

[Christophe]

He, he!!! That's part of the game, isn't it?

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Christophe,

many thanks for your further notes .

But that "awards given in official circumstances, by high personalities of both sides" I can not believe . They got their CCCP & US Awards in a public ceremony ?

Another question to you:

Did our two double agents had any personal relationship to each other?

Best regards

Christian

Good questions and points, Christian. May I precise the question ?

Here, what do we understand as a spy ?

1. These two persons have exerced their "spying" activities for both sides, for the benefit of USSR and USA. In fact they were what we call in French "agents doubles".

2. They "spied" for both sides at the same time, during the same period.

3. their awards, both from USSR and USA, have been awarded precisely for their "spying" activities, for nothing else.

This excludes persons as Putin, who "spied" for one side, and got "honorific" awards only from the other side, as a head of state.

It excludes also people who changed their camp (ex-KGB officers), with long service awards (or other awards) for past activities. We are talking about awards related to the "spying" activities.

We are not talking about the 2 East-German HSUs.

We are not talking here about awards given during a ceremony in a "save flat", but of awards given in official circumstances, by high personalities of both sides.

I hope this is clarified enough to allow you to begin your hunt . Let's see now what you will all find.

I remind the questions, with the precision it is "as spies" that they have been decorated :

Only two spies have ever been decorated (as spies) by both the Soviet Union and the United States.

1. Who are they ?

2. What awards did they receive, and when ?

3. For what actions, from both sides ?

Good hunt.

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

Double Agents - Wiki-Link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Aldrich & Rosario Ames ?

Double agents as a married couple:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames

Best regards

Christian

[Guest RedThreat]

Christophe,

Were they members of Red Capella spy network?

[Christian Zulus]

Were they members of Red Capella spy network?

Maybe , but Leopold Trepper had been till 1955 in NKVD-prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Orchestra_%28spy%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Trepper

At least in the GDR they had been heros.

Best regards

Christian

[Christophe]

(..)

But that "awards given in official circumstances, by high personalities of both sides" I can not believe . They got their CCCP & US Awards in a public ceremony ?

(...)

Christian

Christian,

Sorry to be late about answers to the quiz, but just came back from London today...

I have never said it was a "public" ceremony. I just said these awards were given in official circumstances, by very high rank personalities from both sides. Indeed, these awards have been given in 2 different ceremonies .

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christophe]

(...)

Another question to you:

Did our two double agents had any personal relationship to each other?

Best regards

Christian

Yes, they were brothers. Ooops... a hint .

Ch.

[Christophe]

Aldrich & Rosario Ames ?

Double agents as a married couple:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames

Best regards

Christian

Unfortunately, the answer is no.

Ch.

[Christophe]

Christophe,

Were they members of Red Capella spy network?

Simon,

The answer is no.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christophe]

No new try ?

I will help you...

These two persons were brothers, and american citizens from russian origin.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

These two persons were brothers, and american citizens from russian origin.

Dear Christophe,

sorry, I found no brothers in that list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_spies

Some married couples, but no brothers .

Best regards

Christian

P.S.: Maybe you can give us another hint, under which presidency (Roosevelt, Truman, etc.) in the USA the incident happened .

[Christophe]

P.S.: Maybe you can give us another hint, under which presidency (Roosevelt, Truman, etc.) in the USA the incident happened .

Hi Christian,

Difficult to answer and precise...

Maybe I just could say that the Soviet awards have been (for one of the two brothers) presented by Brezhnev. The American awards have been presented by President Reagan. Not bad... even if they are not in the Wikipedia list.... (you know what to think about it...).

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christophe]

My question does not seem very inspiring ...

A last hint that should help you partly answer to my questions 1. and 3. : Part of these answers is known as Operation Solo...

But, now, you have to answer all 3 questions .

Ch.

[Ed_Haynes]

Very inspiring, very difficult (for me at least).

[Christophe]

Ed,

I don't believe a word of this...

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

Jack & Morris Childs

A last hint that should help you partly answer to my questions 1. and 3. : Part of these answers is known as Operation Solo...

Dear Christophe,

thanks for your last hint .

John Barron, Operation Solo: The FBI's Man in the Kremlin (Regnery Publishing, 1996)

Barron's book deals about the Childs brothers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Childs and more information in the NY Times http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...757C0A960958260 .

Both had been Communists, working for the KGB, in top function at the US-Communist-Party AND spies for the FBI.

1975 Jack & Morris received both a RB and 1987 the brothers got each a Presidential Medal of Freedom.

I don't have this book of John Barron in my library - only his rather old and dated KGB-book .

Best regards

Christian

Edited February 3, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

NEW QUESTION

Gentlemen,

here is the new question - now about tanks :

1. Which Soviet tank of the GPW had at the beginning of the GPW a much thicker armour, than some years later?

2. Why did the constructors do so?

3. What was the nickname of this tank given by the German Wehrmacht? (2 German words, which result in a funny name.)

Best regards

Christian