Soviet Soviet & Eastern Block Quiz

[Christian Zulus]

Christian:

The general is Yakov Grigor'evich Kreiser. He was the first ground forces HSU during GPW. He distinguished himself defending Belorussian town Borisov where I was born and spent summers at my grandparents' house. In his memoirs, Guderian mentioned the trouble his forces had in Borisov fighting Kreiser's 1st Moscow Motorized Rifle Division armed with T-34s. Gen. Kreiser was Jewish just like I am.

Cheers,

Simon

Congratulations, Simon, you have won

Yakov Kreiser had been one of THE top-tank-generals in WW II .

And the Jewish people in the Soviet Union got - in relation to the number of Jewish people ! - by far most of the HSU-Gold-Stars (about 150!). Some of them, like General Kreiser, twice. So, Jews had been the greatest heros in the GPW, despite the Shoa , where more than half of the Jewish population in Europe had been murdered.

It is your turn now to give us another question .

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 7, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[speedytop]

Is it allowed for a new member, to post here something?

I have seen a Marshal in this forum, wearing the ribbon bar in my possession.

There are some more interesting parts of this man in my collection.

Do you know the name and all the decorations on his bar?

Regards

Uwe

I beg your pardon for my bad English

[Guest RedThreat]

Sorry I haven't posted the question yet. My browser crashes after I click "Add Reply" button. I can only do "Fast Reply" that doesn't allow attachments. I will try to post a question at my friend's house a few days from now.

Simon

[Christian Zulus]

Sorry I haven't posted the question yet. My browser crashes after I click "Add Reply" button. I can only do "Fast Reply" that doesn't allow attachments. I will try to post a question at my friend's house a few days from now.

Simon

Dear Simon,

send me the attachment(s) via e-mail - I can reduce them also to 150 KB each - an I will post them for you:

dialog ET zulusrecords.com

Best regards

Christian

[Bryan]

Do you know the name and all the decorations on his bar?

Uwe, welcome to the forum. Maybe you will have more answers if you post your question in "Soviet & Eastern Block Orders, Medals & Decorations" section. This thread is only an informative game and not everybody are coming to this thread.

Viel Spass im Forum!

[Guest RedThreat]

Email sent. Thank you, Christian. It's very kind of you. I will post the question now. Please post pics when you have time.

Christian got me started bragging about my home town heroes. Allow me to continue. This general was born and grew up in Borisov and was also Jewish. During Stalingrad defense, he was deputy commander of 62nd Army in charge of armored forces. He reported directly to Chuikov. Troops under his command didn't allow Germans to capture Central Rail Station. He distinguished himself during Visla-Oder operation and finished the war in Berlin. His brother was also tank officer and HSU. What is the name of this general? It should be an easy question. His medals were offered for sale recently on a major dealer's website.

Cheers,

Simon

[Christian Zulus]

NEW QUESTION

Email sent. Thank you, Christian. It's very kind of you. I will post the question now. Please post pics when you have time.

Christian got me started bragging about my home town heroes. Allow me to continue. This general was born and grew up in Borisov and was also Jewish. During Stalingrad defense, he was deputy commander of 62nd Army in charge of armored forces. He reported directly to Chuikov. Troops under his command didn't allow Germans to capture Central Rail Station. He distinguished himself during Visla-Oder operation and finished the war in Berlin. His brother was also tank officer and HSU. What is the name of this general? It should be an easy question. His medals were offered for sale recently on a major dealer's website.

Cheers,

Simon

BTW: According to the comprehensive encyclopedia of Jewish recipients of the HSU (2002 published in a limited edition by the "Jewish Museum in Vienna" - completly sold out ), the famous general in question and his one year older brother got their HSUs at the same day . The general in question died 1998 in Kiev and so it had been legally unproblematic for the heirs to bring his orders & medals to the US-market. I didn't have the money to by that group .

[Christian Zulus]

Second photograph - might be the brother of the General ?

Dear Simon,

the second photograph in colour might be the one year older brother of the general in question. He didn't promote to a higher rank, than a colonel .

I have no information, when - or if - the brother already passed away. If he is still alive, than he has to be 98 years old.

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Interesting coincidence

Gentlemen,

that famous general in question had been at the "Stalingrad - operation" somehow the boss of Col.-Lt. Maksim Skuba, commander of the 6th Guards Tank Brigade, who later on promoted to the rather ident position - and to a Mj.-Gen. - as the commander of the tank and mechanized forces of the 4th Army, which had been located during the end of the GPW in Iran (!).

I introduced the ID-booklet - with photograph as a Mj.-Gen. showing all his decorations - of comrade Skube at this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11895

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Guide to Jewish HSU-recipients

BTW: According to the comprehensive encyclopedia of Jewish recipients of the HSU (2002 published in a limited edition by the "Jewish Museum in Vienna" - completly sold out ),

Gentlemen,

that is the mentioned booklet, published 2002 by http://www.jmw.at/ .

Each HSU has two pages: Biography & photograph.

Here is the link to the complete list of all recipients: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=14187

I have to admit, that from the phaleristic viewpoint, the booklet has some shortcomings. So, some famous recipients of the HSL (with military connections) were smuggeled into it.

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 11, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Guest RedThreat]

Dear Christian:

You answered the question in your e-mail. Do you want to take the next turn or are you waiting for other forum member to find out the answer?

BTW: According to the comprehensive encyclopedia of Jewish recipients of the HSU (2002 published in a limited edition by the "Jewish Museum in Vienna" - completly sold out ), the famous general in question and his one year older brother got their HSUs at the same day .

Interesting fact!

the second photograph in colour might be the one year older brother of the general in question. He didn't promote to a higher rank, than a colonel .

I have no information, when - or if - the brother already passed away. If he is still alive, than he has to be 98 years old.

Yes, it is his brother. I added his photo on purpose. He died in Israel in 2003.

Cheers,

Simon

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Christian:

You answered the question in your e-mail. Do you want to take the next turn or are you waiting for other forum member to find out the answer?

Cheers,

Simon

Dear Simon,

of course, I don't want to take the next turn .

I thought, that this fact had come out clearly via my postings . GMIC is a club for gentlemen ....

It is unfair towards the other GMIC-members to have that mentioned book about ALL Jewish-recipients of the HSU and to take part at the quiz concerning a Jewish GPW hero.

There are enough well educated members at GMIC to answer your question .

Another "strange" coincidence: Days before you posted your excellent question, I wanted to rise the question at GMIC, if the coincidence, that both brothers received their HSU at the same might be possible, or if it might be a mistake from the publishers of the mentioned guide . The last weeks I had been investigating a little bit in the careers of Jews during the GPW and the life of the Jewish Nation in the CCCP till march 1953, due to the fact, that there are still rumours among "national" & "conservative" circles (and also in publications ), that comrade Generalissimus Stalin might have been an antisemite, as the Austrian Adolf Schickelgruber (vulgo: Hitler - or "Gitler" in Russian ) had been .

BTW: The publishing of the comprehensive list of the Jewish HSU-recipients - I did - is a strict violation of Austrian copyright laws. I hope, that the "Jewish Museum" would not sue me . I think, it is important to have that list at GMIC .

Best regards

Christian

[Guest RedThreat]

of course, I don't want to take the next turn

Christian, I thought so.

Days before you posted your excellent question, I wanted to rise the question at GMIC, if the coincidence, that both brothers received their HSU at the same might be possible, or if it might be a mistake from the publishers of the mentioned guide

I believe both brothers got HSU for Visla-Oder operation. They must have gotten decorated by the same decree that honored those who distinguished themselves during this operation.

The last weeks I had been investigating a little bit in the careers of Jews during the GPW and the life of the Jewish Nation in the CCCP till march 1953, due to the fact, that there are still rumours among "national" & "conservative" circles (and also in publications ), that comrade Generalissimus Stalin might have been an antisemite, as the Austrian Adolf Schickelgruber (vulgo: Hitler - or "Gitler" in Russian ) had been .

In my opinion, Stalin was pragmatic above all. On an emotional level, he might have been an antisemite. In his policies, he used people to the best of his interests regardless of their ethnicity. Many Stalin's Narkoms and generals were Jewish: Kaganovich, Ginsburg, Vannikov, earlier mentioned on this thread Zaltsman, NKVD Lt. Gen. Milshtein, etc. Stalin is accused of being an antisemite because of "The Doctor Case" when Jewish doctors were suspected of plotting to kill him. Evidence exists that right before his death Stalin planned to exile all Jews to remote regions of the country. If it is true, his motivation was practical and not dictated by a simple dislike of Jews. Exile of Jews would have provoked US to adopt anti-Soviet policy which would give Stalin an excuse to start WW3.

[Christian Zulus]

Antisemitism in the CCCP till march 1953?

In my opinion, Stalin was pragmatic above all. On an emotional level, he might have been an antisemite. In his policies, he used people to the best of his interests regardless of their ethnicity. Many Stalin's Narkoms and generals were Jewish: Kaganovich, Ginsburg, Vannikov, earlier mentioned on this thread Zaltsman, NKVD Lt. Gen. Milshtein, etc. Stalin is accused of being an antisemite because of "The Doctor Case" when Jewish doctors were suspected of plotting to kill him. Evidence exists that right before his death Stalin planned to exile all Jews to remote regions of the country. If it is true, his motivation was practical and not dictated by a simple dislike of Jews. Exile of Jews would have provoked US to adopt anti-Soviet policy which would give Stalin an excuse to start WW3.

Dear Simon,

I think, that you are little bit wrong with your opinion regarding Jews & Stalin .

Your are right, that there had been traces of antisemitism in the CCCP and Eastern Europe during that period.

Stalin himself was a member of a tiny ethnic minority in the CCCP and his Russian was - let us say - not excellent . In Stalin's "Inner Circle" - as you mentioned - there had been been a great number number of Jews or Russians with close ties to the Jewish Nation. Look at the Red Army and look the Political Commissars of the Red Army - you will find a hughe number of Jewish people. The fact is, that the Jewish Nation was somehow "overrepresented" in the CCCP in the Stalin-era, as other national minorities had been "overrepresented" in comparison to the Russian population (that changed quickly after the dead of Stalin!).

So, let us compare, how many Jewish people hold top positions in Germany at that time, in the "Third Reich", "SS" or in the "Wehrmacht" - none, 0,0 percent! "Nuernberger Rassegesetze" ... The fact is, that Jewish people hold THE top position in Germany in the "Concentration Camps" - besides people from Russia, Yugoslavia, Poland, etc. About 6 million Jews had been murderd by Germans and Austrians during 1938 and 1945!

There is no historic evidence or proof at all, that Stalin himself had been antisemitic in his feelings or that Jews had to suffer till march 1953, due to orders of Stalin himself. How many million of Jews were send under Stalin to "Concentration Camps" or to the "Gas Chambers" - none! They received the highest military orders of the CCCP instead .

O.K., the situation for Jews was a little bit "different", after Stalin passed away . But at least comrade Andropov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Andropov made his way to the top of the CCCP before he passed suddenly away .

Coming back to the topic: Stalin was in the late 1940s/early 1950s phyisically a very ill person, as we know from his daughter and from numerous other sources. In the last years of Stalin, a western - GB, but also USA and therefore "liberal" - oriented gang around the "monster" Beria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrenty_Beria (Beria had been fully responsible for Katyn and the "Great Purge" before the GPW among the Red Army) and the "dull" Malenkov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Malenkov seized somehow the effective power in the CCCP and in Eastern Europe. The effect was murderours . Their first victim had been Zhdanov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Zhdanov , Stalin's successor and a real genius in any (communist) case. The next victim - executed 1949 - had been Voznesensky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Voznesensky THE economic genius of the CCCP. One of the other numerous victims of the Beria/Malenkov-Gang had been the brilliant Jewish Communist Rudolf Sl?nsk? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Sl%C3%A1nsk%C3%BD , who had been executed in Prague in 1952. The last victim of the Beria/Malenkov-Gang had been Stalin himself.

To sum the facts up: Yes, there had been some antisemitism in the CCCP and in Eastern Europe even before the death of Stalin, but the affair got drastic - Sl?nsk? & "Doctor Case" - at a time, when Stalin already had been very, very ill. The source of antisemitism had been the Beria/Malenkov-Gang and not Stalin or the other members of the Politbuero! Molotow & Kaganovich are free of the suspicion, to be antisemits .

The fact is, that Stalin wanted to expell Beria from the Politbuero and to put him to trail for his numerous criminal acts.

Coming back to your remarks: Yes, comrade Stalin had been a very pragmatic person, as President Roosevelt tells. Roosevelt adressed him also as a "true democract" .

You are writing "Exile of Jews would have provoked US to adopt anti-Soviet policy which would give Stalin an excuse to start WW3." That is wrong from the sight of the historians, Stalin was never interested in a WW3 - the country was still too weak. But it is a fact, that parts of the Red Army proposed in the late 1940s to comrade Stalin a plan for the (military) liberation of the Western European "working class". Another Semyon or Simon - not you - Marshall Budyonny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Budyonny was very eager about that plan (Communist Parties had been rather strong at that time in Western Europe - and also in the USA & Hollywood) and made some pressure to comrade Stalin. Stalin's answer (as a true pragmatic ) had been: "My dear comrade, that's true, the Red Army might reach the Atlantic Coast within a few days, but how to feed the European people - with our Soviet economy?".

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 12, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Ferdinand]

To get back to the original question - is it Matvei Grigoryevich Vainrub?

Edited January 12, 2007 by Ferdinand

[Guest RedThreat]

Congratulations, Ferdinand. It's your turn now.

Christian, thank you for your informative post.

Cheers,

Simon

[Ferdinand]

To stay in Stalingrad - Who is this officer that would later become an important general in the staff of the 62nd Army?

Edited January 13, 2007 by Ferdinand

[Christian Zulus]

History of the Soviet Union

Christian, thank you for your informative post.

Cheers,

Simon

Dear Simon,

many thanks .

It has been only a very abridged overview about that highly interesting topic

If you are interested in Stalin as a real person - beyond propaganda & official speeches AND doctored "history" of western historians - please have a look at Stalin's letters to Molotow. Some historians (Russian & Western ones) edited them in a perfect way. You can get the book for only USD 5,- (used) via AMAZON:

http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Letters-Molo...m/dp/0300068611

Sorry, the only present the English translation, but only a few of the letters as faksimile.

A very controversial view against the mainstream-historians presents Prof. Ludo Martens in his book "Another view of Stalin", which is in a perfect und practiable way (complete!) presented in the www: http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html .

Here you will find some of Stalin's main (official) writings: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/index.htm . Sorry, also only in English, but they also published the highly interesting late work of Stalin about economics: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/...blems/index.htm , where we can see him also as a "pure pragmatic".

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

To stay in Stalingrad - Who is this officer that would later become an important general in the staff of the 62nd Army?

Dear Ferdinand,

did our comrade stay till the end of the GPW in the 62nd Army - then Guards Army?

Best regards

Christian

[Ferdinand]

Hello Christian,

After the Battle of Stalingrad our comrade was in the staff of the Southern Front for a short while. Then he rejoined the 8th Guards Army. He died of illness later in 1943.

Auke

[Christian Zulus]

Hello Christian,

After the Battle of Stalingrad our comrade was in the staff of the Southern Front for a short while. Then he rejoined the 8th Guards Army. He died of illness later in 1943.

Auke

Dear Auke,

many thanks for your further informations .

So, well have to do some research about Chuikov & his comrades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Chuikov .

It is a pity, that I only have Chuikov's book "The end of the Third Reich" in my library, but not "The Battle of the Century", which deals with Stalingrad .

I have realy no glue, who that meritorious comrade might have been, who passed away so early .

Best regards

Christian

[Ferdinand]

Hello Christian,

Now that you're talking about Chuikov - the two officers were close friends. Both had tears in their eyes when they split up after the Battle of Stalingrad. Chuikovs mentions our officer in his memoirs. He wrote that his friend had 'iron nerves' and always remained very calm. Chuikov was shocked by his early death.

Our comrade was awarded an Order of Lenin and three Ordes of the Red Banner.

Good luck

Auke

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Auke,

it had been "good luck" .

GOOGLE (chuikov + show pictures) delivered me the result with one mousklick - sorry ....

I found two highly interesting articles dealing with comrade Gurov from a certain Auke de Vlieger at the www:

http://www.go2war2.nl/artikel/1239

http://www.stalingradbattle.nl/personen/goerov.htm

Despite the fact, that German speaking persons can read some Dutch, maybe you can post us some more informations about that highly interesting political commissar of the Red Army .

Lt.-Gen. is a rather high rank for a political commissar of an Army - would suit more to a Front, where he also did his duty twice.

Do you have any idea about the cititations concerning his 3 RBs and one Lenin?

What had been his relationship to Khrushchev http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev , who had been also a political commissar with the same rank (Lt.-Gen.)?

Why did he die so young?

Best regards

Christian

Hello Christian,

Now that you're talking about Chuikov - the two officers were close friends. Both had tears in their eyes when they split up after the Battle of Stalingrad. Chuikovs mentions our officer in his memoirs. He wrote that his friend had 'iron nerves' and always remained very calm. Chuikov was shocked by his early death.

Our comrade was awarded an Order of Lenin and three Ordes of the Red Banner.

Good luck

Auke

[Ferdinand]

Hello Christian,

As you might have figured out those are my sites Unfortunately there isn't much information available. All I know is on my page about Gurov:

http://www.stalingradbattle.nl/personen/goerov.htm

I'm always looking for more information, but my Russian isn't very advanced and I have no idea where to look. I think I have all there is to find on the internet (which is by the way contradicting).

In short, Gurov was born 1 September 1901 and he died of a heart disease near Donetsk on 25 September 1943, barely 42 years old. As Division-Commissar he was the Political Commissar (Member of the Military Council) of the 62nd Army during the Battle of Stalingrad. He was promoted Lieutenant-General on 6 December 1942. Gurov was the most important officer of the 62nd Army after Chuikov and Krylov. These two both became Marshals of the Soviet Union after the war and who knows what became of Gurov if he didn't die so early. In March 1943 Gurov was transferred to the staff of the Southern Front and later that year back to the 62nd Army (now renamed 8th Guards Army).

Lieutenant-General is indeed a high rank for a Member of the Military Council, but there were more high-than-average ranking officers in the 62nd Army. Probably due to the severe fighting and difficulties during the Battle of Stalingrad. The commander of the artillery was a Major-General, and so was the engineer commander. Furthermore there were a lot of Colonels.

Well, it's your turn now Christian!

Auke

Edited January 14, 2007 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

Ow, about Khrushchev: he was promoted Lieutenant-General 12 February 1943, so while he was the Member of the Military Council of the Stalingrad Front (where the 62nd Army was part of) he held the same rank as Gurov, and there was even a period when Gurov was Lieutenant-General and Khrushchev not yet. Odd.