Researching German pre-1945 medalbars

[Paul C]

Several questions have recently been raised on medabars and if they can be research and traced to the original owners. I thought I would start a thread using bars from my own collection and explain why some bars are tracable and some are not. As a rule all enlisted mens bars can not be traced as the sources do not exist.

For a medal bar to be tracable it needs, what I call a hook - something must be rather unique about the bar. For example a foreign award, a combination of different states awards or something unsual.

I ususally divide medalbars into 3 different periods, WWI, 1870 and Third Reich. Now naturally there is an overlay between these three periods but I generally use the Iron Cross as a determinator. If there is a 1870 EK on the bar then it is in the 1870 period. If there is a 1914 EK on the bar then it is in the WWI and possibly Third Reich period. It is important to know what period a bar falls into because, usually that determines if the bar can be traced.

If we start with the 1870 period bar we will see a usually see 1870 EK and a 1870 campaign medal and maybe a red eagle or crown order. There may also be some type of states order like a Bayern MVO or maybe a Sax-Albert. Again there must be something unique about the bar. A typical 1870 bar with a EK2, Red Eagle Order 4, 1870 campaign medal and maybe a 1897 centennial medal is not tracable as most Captains or Majors had that combination. However if we add a decoration from Italy on to the above bar it then becomes much more tracable. So now for the how. The only way to trace a bar from the 1870 period is with the German Army Ranklists. The ranklists details MOST of an officers awards. The ranklists include an officers "German" and foreign awards but excludes his campaign medals.

I think a word about the ranklists is important for the new members. From about 1796 until 1914 the Prussian Army published a ranklist which is a list of officers by regiment and a list of their awards. The Prussian Army Ranklist, after about 1892, includes the Wurttemberg Army ranklist. Now keep in mind that the "Germany" army, after 1870, also consisted of the Bavarian and Saxony army. They also published a ranklist. You also have to keep in mind that the German Navy also published a ranklist but I will save the navy for another time. During WWI a a ranklist was not published and publication resumed in 1922 and continued until 1932. After 1932 a ranklist was not published bu the German Army until 1957. Yes, 1957 and I have one! It is useless but interesting. So to sum up if you have a 1870 bar and it has something unique about it you need the ranklist to find the guy.

Let's move to the 1914 period......

[Paul C]

The below bar consists of the 1914 EK2, Baden War Effort, Hindenburg K, Red Eagle Order 4, Prussian 25yr LSC, Centennial and Baden Jubillee. What makes this bar traceable?

1. The Baden Jubillee and Bade War Effort say Baden regiment

2. The officer was in for at least 25 "years" of service time

3. Red Eagle Order 4

4. Lack of other wartime awards

For an office to have received the Baden Jubille he would have had to be in a Baden regiment in 1902. So we are looking for a officer from a Baden regiment in 1902 who did not receive a Baden Lion award, had the red eagle 4, was in the 1897 and did not receive any wartime awards. The only person who fits the bill is Karl Seitz of IR 170. He retire and May of 1914 but was called back for the war. How do I know he was called backl if there was no wartime ranklists? Ah the German Army Honor Ranklist which was published in 1926 and lists all regular, non reserve and landswehr, officers.

So what sources did we use to trace this bar.

1. The Prussian Ranklists

2. Published award rolls

3. German Army Honor Ranklist

What made this bar rather unique?

1. Tied to a Baden Regiment

2. No Baden Lion

3. No other then EK wartime awards

[Paul C]

One more example for tonight. Teh below bar is one of my favorite and consists of: 1914 EK2 NK, Prussian War Effort, Red Eagle Order 4, Red Cross Medal (wartime zinc), landwehr LSC 2nd class (10 yr), Brunswick War Merit cross 2nd class NK. Now this bar certainly meets our requirement for some unique,

1. The 1914 EK NK and Brunwick War Merit cross NK are rather

2. It is an officer bar and has a pre-1914 Red Eagle Order so he was in before 1914

So is the bar tracable. Regretably No! Why

1. The EK NK, Brunwick NK and Red cross medal award rolls do not exist

2. All we are left with is a pre-war red eagle order 4 to a landswehr officer from a town in the principality of Brunswick.

I will be doing more examples of traceable and non-traceable bars for various different states next week. If you want to learn more about tracing bars I suggest that you get a 1914 Prussian ranklist and see what awards are listed for officers and at what ranklists they get them. Also you need to know what award rolls are available. Maybe a fellow forum member will list the published award rolls.

[medalnet]

Paul,

I am truly amazed about the possibilities of research these days. When I started collecting nobody ever thought identifieing those groups.

Well done

Andreas

[Wild Card]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for sharing this very helpful information. While it certainly

points us in the right direction, I still say that you guys have a unique

talent.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[sambolini]

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to present this information. It's very helpful, as well as interesting. I have a set of the transcribed award rolls by Rick, et al. and a Prussian 1907 rank list, but to me the hard part is getting started, and as you show here, if a bar is even traceable.

Kind regards,

Sam K.

Edited October 22, 2008 by sambolini

[Paul C]

Thank you for your nice comments, but I must add that I have had 2 of the best mentors that anyone could have; Rick and Daniel. One of the things I learn is that what is NOT on a medal bar is as equally as important as what IS on the bar. If we look at the example below we see a medalbar with following:

1. 1914 EK2

2. Hamburg Hanseatic

3. Anhalt Cross

4. Hindenburg Cross

5. Mecklenburg Griffen 3rd class

6. Prussian 25yr LSC

7. SWA Steel NK

8. 1897 Centennial

9. Hungarian commemorative

10. Japan Order of the sun 5th class

This bar tells us the guy was in before 1897, fought in WWI, was alive in at least 1934, and served at least 25 years. You would think that after 25 years he would have had at least a red eagle order or Prussian crown order. So maybe, as an officer he was not that good and he did not do much during the war, but he did put in 25 years. Again keep in mind what is missing. Is it possible that this officer was actually very good and did have the RAO4 or KO4 and that as he advanced in rank these were upgrade to a RAO3 or KO3 and then a RAO2 and KO2? Well that is excately the case. This bar belonged to GL GRONAU, Karl Max Erdm. His RAO and KO were around the neck as a RAO2EX and KO2. He also had a neck order from Saxony and Waldeck; SA2aX, WVK1X.

So as we see what is traceable and untraceable it is always important to consider what is NOT on the bar. Will all bars that have a 25yr LSC and no RAO or KO be a bar to a General? No, there were officers who served 25 years and did not receive these awards.

[Ulsterman]

Actually-the higher classes of DRK award rolls may exist -somewhere.

My guess is that pre-1933 they do, because secondary articles were written in the 1960s that had some very precise and idiosyncratic statistical information about who, where, when and how got what.

[Paul C]

Pre-1914 awards of the red cross medal are listed in the Ordenslist, but wartime red cross award roll, to my knowledge are not available. During the 1919-1933 period I do not know what is available but my thought is that the rolls do not exist. What are the Ordenslist? Ah that is another topic and thread!

Edited October 22, 2008 by Paul C

[Brian R]

Paul - This truly is a great thread - Thanks for starting it and providing such great explanations.

The problem I have with understanding medal bars is this (at the risk of showing how ignorant I really am)...

How do bars from various states end up on the same bar? I understand that soldiers were transferred, and units from one area served with others but... here's an example...

Here is a post 1934 frack bar to a Saxon who refused to follow regulations; wearing his Albert Order before the EK. He has to be at least a Leutnant. The Brunswick Cross is an EK equivilant, but has been awarded to a Saxon.

Is this a Saxon officer serving with a unit from Brunswick? Is it a man from Brunswick serving as a Saxon officer? Or what? And how does it relate to his Saxon Landwehr Service Medal?

Part of the problem is that I don't have a good enough understanding of how units from various States merged etc., into the Kaiser's army.

Thanks, as always.

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't find ANY pattern in Brunswick awards to Saxons-- aren't enough of them now known to draw any conclusions from.

Normally, some sort of joint service OR... the guy was born there and they put him in for it as a "native."

IF the Research Gnomes Collective can ever re-discover the lamentably late Erhard Roth's secret sources, this may prove identifiable. I'd say he was an Oberleutnant of the Landwehr during the war. Just not enough to go on yet since we are all engaged in Prussia and the Imperial Navy.

[Paul C]

I agree with Rick in his above accessment. If a long service medal is on the bar it will tell us what state the person was from, Saxony, Prussian, Bayern, Wurttemberg. During the war regiments were intermingled so we do see some odd combinations. If you look throught the Armee Korps section of in the beginning of the Prussian Ranklist you will see how the Korps/Division/IR structure was setup. Another point is that where a person was born also influnces what awards he received. For example, the bayern Juille medal 99.9% present of the time went to Bayerns. You would question seeing a Bayern Jubillee medal on a Prussian bar, but how about seeing a Bayern Jubillee medal on a Navy bar, very odd? The below ribbon bar is traced, beyound a doubt to a Navy Doctor Freymadl and has a Jubille ribbon because he was born in Bayern. As also there is an exception to every rule.

[joe campbell]

a LOVELY thread!

the basics...

gotta' start with the basics.

perhaps some discussion of the

kinds of awards and decorations bestowed:

-long service

-military merit/bravery

-jubilee/anniversary

-non-combatant/support roles

i'm sure there are more...

and i'm still not sure i understand the

presence of multiple states/principalities/duchies

and how you figure which is "precedent"...

a lovely thread...

joe

[dond]

A very educational thread. Keep it coming, please.

[Guest Rick Research]

Strange multiple state combinations have several explanations

1) a mixed division containing troops from both states

2) a staff officer at a level where units from those states were commanded

3) membership in a regiment whose honorary Colonel-in-Chief was the sovereign from another state or

4) lost misplaced natives in somebody else's outfit.

For one of the last:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=31693&hl=

[Paul C]

There was a strict mounting order for awards. The Iron Cross was always first, followed by combat awards, campaign awards and non-combat awards then foreign. There was also a strict order for awards from different states. I will ask Rick to address this as he is much more familiar with it then me. Remember the rules were not always followed by the people who mounted the medals on the bar and also the person who requested the mount i.e. there are many Bayern bars with the EK in second place. The next example I would like to illustrate is a bar with combat awards and compaign medals. The below bar has:

1. 1914 EK2

2. EK2 ribbon with missing decoration

3. Mecklenburg Militar Service Cross 2nd class

4. Hamburg

5. Officer 25 yr LSC

6. Veterans Association medal

7. Southwest Africa campaign NK

8. 1897 Centennial

It has a red back. OK let's read the bar. This is a term that Tony Colson gave to me and is used to describe how we determine who and when someone had this bar. The LSC tells us he was Prussian and did 25 years, the Centennial tells us he was on active service before April 1897, The veterans org medal tells use the bar was mounted before 1934 when the Hindenburg Cross replaced all of the veterans type medals and may also indicate that the person died before 1934. Of importance is the SWA NK or Steel. The NK version is given to people who aided the SWA campaign and did not actually fight. The aid could have been as simple as serving donuts to the soldier as they boarded to ships to SWA. Do the Prussian ranklists list campaign medal - NO. However the Bayern's did list the China, SWA and Colonial medal in their version of the ranklist which is title the Bayern Militar Handbuch. So if you find a Beyern officers medal bar with a China, SWA or Colonial medal grab it as chances are good it can be traced.

So now we are left with what is the missing medal. We have 3 choices, Red Eagle Order with swords, Crown Order with swords, or Hohenzollern House Order with swords. All 3 of these awards with swords use the EK ribbon. The missing medal is Hohenzollern House Order with swords because the other 2 were NOT given out during WWI. They were however given out for the wars in the 1860's and the China, SWA and Kolonial campaigns for combat. Since we see a SWA NK campaign medal we know the person did not see combat in SWA. If you ever see a medal bar with the RAO4X or KO4X and if you do not see a 1860's campaign combattants medal or a SWA, China or Kolonial combatant medal then some is wrong or switched. So now we know the missing medal.

You would think this combination is rather unique and you would be right. When you throw the SWA NK in the mix one would think the bar is tracable. But there is only one source that lists the SWA medal for Prussian Officers and that is the DOA or Deutsch Ordens Almanach, (German Orders Almanach). The book was published 1902/03, 1904/05 1906 and 1908/09. It was a book where people would pay to have their names and awards listed. They could also add additional information. It is not all inclusive of Prussian officers as many choice to not be included and not pay.

Getting back to the original question os if this bar can be traced the key is the SWA NK, which we address above and the Hohenzollern House Order. Sadly there is no actual awards roll for the Hohenzollern House Order but the estimate is that over 9000 were awarded. Regretable I can not trace this bar yet since complete award rolls do not exist and also that the person was out of service after 1919. But what if the person stayed in during the 1920's and into the 30's? Would we have a greater chance of tracing a medal bar from someone who stayed in between the war?

That's all for tonight as me and my fingers are tired!!!!!

Edited October 25, 2008 by Rick Research

[Guest Rick Research]

Regulations are posted on the other side of this website:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?autocom=galler...q=sc&cat=28

Second and Third Reich rules are under the Prussian section. Or click on "Gallery" up top of the main GMIC page, find these sections, and click on each one for the texts. I believe probationary new members cannot access that half of the website. You will note I've left a space for the Kingdom of W?rttemberg. They were CRAZY. I've saved them for Very Last (one of these years...).

Daniel's massive work on all the Prussian Orders with swords and World War awards on either "Iron Cross" ribbon without swords, using previously untapped period sources has added huge numbers of awards to those previously known for the HOH3X, RAO, and KO. Watch for it in our next batch of awards rolls books in 2009. :ninja:

[Ulsterman]

As a technical aside, the Hk was instituted in 1934 and awarded heavily in later 1934 and 1935. The ban on other vets awards did not occur until very late in 1935 and really did not take effect until early 1936. Even after 1936 it was occasionally flaunted, depending upon the circumstances.

[joe campbell]

this is the JUICIEST stuff in awhile...

thanks for the tutorial!

joe

[saschaw]

Paul, thanks for this well done and useful thread!

For an office to have received the Baden Jubille he would have had to be in a Baden regiment in 1902.

Actually not. Any officer who made it to officer in Baden service would have received it - even if he was anywhere else in 1902. Plus, keep in mind the medal was not an military award but also awarded to many civilians. Still, here's an officer of course.

Teh below bar is one of my favorite and consists of: 1914 EK2 NK, Prussian War Effort, Red Eagle Order 4, Red Cross Medal (wartime zinc), [...]

Are you sure PRM3 in zinc are war time issues? I thought war time awards came in iron while the zinc medals were post war...

[Paul C]

In reply to:

Are you sure PRM3 in zinc are war time issues? I thought war time awards came in iron while the zinc medals were post war...

I am not 100% sure but it was the information I was given. However I will say to during the war iron was very much needed for war production. Maybe another forum member has more information.

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: Sascha-- I have NEVER seen a Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class made of iron!

Pre-war ones were nice and ROUND and bronze. There was a transition period (1914/15?) when the round shape with normal ring was retained, but they were zinc...and then the common China/Southwest "teardrop" style with the jumper ring through the hole on top of the medal, in gray zinc.

Hard to say which was introduced when without documented groups.

[saschaw]

There was a transition period (1914/15?) when the round shape with normal ring was retained, but they were zinc...

I think I've never seen that. Are you sure those were of official issue?

Hard to say which was introduced when without documented groups.

Mhh, that stuff gets usually dug out by some collectors from Berlin to be published e.g. in BDOS' magazine, but I never know where to look at (hundereds of magazines) and don't have them handy. At least with some things we don't _need_ groups to tell when the were issued - as the archives still exist and have that information! I'm not 100% sure about the PRM3 time line, but... well, actually I'm almost. Nimmergut's OEK gives: bronce 1898 to 1916, iron from 1916-1917 and zinc for the 1917 to 1921 issues. So I wasn't right - but not to wrong neither.

Sascha-- I have NEVER seen a Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class made of iron!

Oh really? So now it's time! Privately gilt but iron nevertheless...

:beer:

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: Huh!

I had a lovely ROUND zink mounted pair with... the only baden 1902 Jubilee Medal that I ever had... but I sold it when you were tiny, before computers.

N-E-V-E-R S-E-L-L A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G. :banger:

[saschaw]

N-E-V-E-R S-E-L-L A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

Yeah, that would indeed be the best. What I yet HAD, and so much gone. Sold ribbon bars for 10,- and 20,- that now have been identified... =(

I had a lovely ROUND zink mounted pair with... the only baden 1902 Jubilee Medal that I ever had... but I sold it when you were tiny, before computers.

But you still have at least a xerox, don't you?

What I wonder about my bar posted above - I know it's a bit "salty", but hey, it was about 160,- Euro, in 2006 bought at a show! The merit medal is a pre war issue, even a pre 1908 version. All other awards are WWI or even post. Any idea what the merit medal might have been given for? I guess that is one of the presumably only few that was given for REAL merit and not for beeing in state service for some decades - as for that, he "looks" way to young.