Bakelite wound badges

[don]

Gentlemen, Here is a shot of one of the so called Stalingrad ground dugs.As you may or may not

know a bunch of plastic or Bakelite wound badges were found in the ground around Stalingrad.

As far as I know this one came from that lot.Lots of talk on the subject of plastic or bakelite .

badges.no idea if good or not and that is not what this thread is about.

don

[don]

More

[don]

ONE MORE :rolleyes:

[don]

On the back there is the remains of two iron or steel pins.Not sure if just one and attacked on two places on badge.Front has good detail and looks like a 1939 first type.Badge does look like it has been in the ground.But that does not mean anything.If other members have info,please post.

Thanks

don

[jzab]

Has there ever been any notation of any other German badges ever being made of lucite. Seems hard to believe that they would only make the wound badges of this material. Have these supposed dug items come in all three levels of the badge. With the technology today anything can be created and created to look ancient or buried or whatever. Some even go so far as to making items more pristine than the originals ever were poroduced. I am still looking for information on the German cloth wound badges. i have seen pic's of them in the different grades and do have a black cloth wb. jzab

[Paul R]

Are you sure the badge is made of bakelite? It looks more like a tar like substance based upon the photos.

[Guest Darrell]

I think some of our Eastern Friends are having a joke with us. I wouldn't think Wound Badges would be required to be made out of something like this due to the numbers produced. But of course all GD items are original no doubt. :rolleyes:

[jzab]

But then there were a very few bakelite badges produced during the war by the british ? canadian forces. So who knows for sure. :blush:

[leigh kitchen]

There were hundreds of thousands of badges produced in what people mistakenly call bakelite by the British during WWII, including most of the infantry regiments & corps cap badges, rank insignia, & Polish & French insignia.

They were actually an early form of plastic rather than bakelite, the bubbling on the reverse of the wound badge shown in the photo is very similar to the effect found on a lot of these British made badges.

The British ones are faked nowadays.

From a position of ignorance on German wound badges I'd ask why these turned up in a box at Stalingrad.

[Gordon Craig]

A couple of comments.

1-Why only in Stalingrad? If the Germans were reduced to producing Wound Badges in a substitute material other than metal you would think they would turn up in multiple locations;

2-In W. Darrin Weaver's book "KUNSTSTOFFE A Collector's Guide to German World War II Plastics and their Markings" there is no mention of badges of any kind made from bakelite/plastic and he covers the subject very well. If wound badges were produced in this type of material I would have expected them to show up in his book.

Regards,

Gordon

[nesredep]

A couple of comments.

1-Why only in Stalingrad? If the Germans were reduced to producing Wound Badges in a substitute material other than metal you would think they would turn up in multiple locations;

2-In W. Darrin Weaver's book "KUNSTSTOFFE A Collector's Guide to German World War II Plastics and their Markings" there is no mention of badges of any kind made from bakelite/plastic and he covers the subject very well. If wound badges were produced in this type of material I would have expected them to show up in his book.

Regards,

Gordon

Hello!

Interesting comments.I agree.

All the best

Nesredep

[Colin Davie]

A couple of comments.

1-Why only in Stalingrad? If the Germans were reduced to producing Wound Badges in a substitute material other than metal you would think they would turn up in multiple locations;

2-In W. Darrin Weaver's book "KUNSTSTOFFE A Collector's Guide to German World War II Plastics and their Markings" there is no mention of badges of any kind made from bakelite/plastic and he covers the subject very well. If wound badges were produced in this type of material I would have expected them to show up in his book.

Regards,

Gordon

Given the multitude of event (Daybadges) and some HJ sports awards produced in plastic I would say he covers the subject very poorly.

C

Quick edit to mention the plastic ribbon bars too

Edited January 28, 2009 by Colin Davie

[Gordon Craig]

Colin,

Good point. I don't collect this sort of thing so they didn't come to mind. Are any of the plastic items you mentioned marked in any way on the badge itself? I don't know that I have ever seen a plastic/bakelite ribbon bar. Do you have a picture of one you could post?

Regards,

Gordon

[Colin Davie]

No worries Gordon, here is a thread showing both.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=26434

Different badges are found in different materials.. some (most) are a bit pliable and if you bent them over I don't think they would break, others are really hard, more like the bakelite type of material and I feel if you put the same strain on them they would snap.

These wound badges are interesting, I've read about them a couple of times, if they were some sort of scam the perps certainly have'nt seemed to have taken it any further, which kind of (for me anyways) gives them a bit more credibility, these have been out of the ground quite a while now no?

C

[Gordon Craig]

Colin,

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. The possibility of making bakelite/plastic wound badges certainly seems to exist. If they can make hand guards for G43s out of this stuff a wound badge would be a piece of cake!

I guess on second thougt, finding only one lot of wound badges made of bakelite/plastic in Stalingrad would not be out of question. If they could parachute containers of Iron Cross's in why not bakelite wound badges? One must keep an open mind but ask questions. On the other hand, I saw a display of fake stuff from Latvia one year at The MAX that left me speachless. Everything from licence plates to high end awards that were almost impossible to tell from the real thing. Thats when I stopped collecting most TR stuff except for Forestry items.

Thanks again for your response.

Regards,

Gordon

[Chris Boonzaier]

Would the LDO not have to have authorised any such variation?

[Kev in Deva]

One must ask why these particular objects have only surfaced in Stalingrad,

surely they would have been issued in other theaters as well

and particularly more so in Germany as the Russians closed in and the war drew to an end.

And some where along the line the ones worn by returning Stalingrad vets would have come to light?

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Chris Boonzaier]

I bet someone, somewhere on the web will come up with the idea that.....

"Well, because the Germans were supplied by air and every kilo counted on the supply planes, they especially made lighter bakelite ones to carry into Stalingrad....."

[Kev in Deva]

IMHO these belong in the same category as the "Get out of Stalingrad tokens"

being offered from ground finders in Russia

Kevin in Deva. :lol:

[Colin Davie]

I don't know, but a couple of thoughts too.

1. Plastic today has a kinda tacky cheap monkey on it's back, but in the 30's and 40's it was funky and desireable.

2. Back then a lot of toys were made of thin metal, maybe in reality plastic was actually viewed as an upgrade rather than the downgrade we're seeing. Certainly many wives have taken that view over the years not mine though

3. On the lightweight idea put forward in jest... maybe not so daft to someone wearing all these badges, also they would'nt "clink" so much.

Who knows

Cheers

C

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Colin

but it still does not address the fact that the "items" have only surfaced in Stalingrad.

Are we to believe they were made in "situ" by the Germans while under siege?

And if produced in Germany proper why have they not been found there post war?

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Colin Davie]

Hi Colin

but it still does not address the fact that the "items" have only surfaced in Stalingrad.

Are we to believe they were made in "situ" by the Germans while under siege?

And if produced in Germany proper why have they not been found there post war?

Kevin in Deva.

1. Not so, other places, there is a "30" marked plastic badge found somewhere memory serves, and also other so called vet bringbacks.

2. No, unless they sent them back to Germany too

3. They have.

I'm not insisting they are genuine, just addressing some of the points made so far, none of which changes my open mind on these things. I would also mention the period made plastic HJ membership badges.

C

[don]

Anyways....I had heard about the Stalingrad ground dugs a while back.Also have heard about other bakelite or plastic types....I think I saw one marked 30.Since I have a large collection of wound badges I wanted to see one and add to the collection.The collector who found them offered me one

........Is it real?No idea....It looks like a 1939 first type....Hs good detail....Remains of pin can been seen on back....Also looks like it has been in the ground a long time.

don

[don]

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[Guest Darrell]

C'mon people ... what next ... plastic RK's only in Smolensk?