Gordon Williamson Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Lets see if anyone can come up with a rationale for whether this would ever be worn on naval uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WAR LORD Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) The Unit definitly went to sea. But this was transportation, the ships were lost in the Indian Ocean, having left Hamburg. A just by the way, the shield is extreemly rare. Edited December 2, 2008 by WAR LORD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 There is no such rationalle. I am not sure what sources give rise to this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 There is no such rationalle. I am not sure what sources give rise to this idea.Oh yes there is ! The piece in question came directly from the Kriegsmarine individual, who actually wore it, on his naval uniform, complete with a letter attesting to how and when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 On what basis did he believe he qualified to wear it?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 On what basis did he believe he qualified to wear it?!?!On the basis he was ordered to ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 By whom and for what possible reason? Did he serve in the Indian Legion?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 By whom and for what possible reason?By the ranking officer of the Legion at that time - Summer 1944.Did he serve in the Indian Legion??No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Do you understand why I find this hard (well, almost impossible) to believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 Do you understand why I find this hard (well, almost impossible) to believe?Nevertheless, it happened. Unless of course you are suggesting that the person from whom it originated completely invented his wartime experiences and lied about how he obtained the (to him) unimportant patch ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WAR LORD Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 It is possible that the man was on one of the three ships used by the Indian legion. The ships could have been under the controle of the Free Indian authorities and thus would wear the unit shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 It is possible that the man was on one of the three ships used by the Indian legion. The ships could have been under the controle of the Free Indian authorities and thus would wear the unit shield. Nope, nothing to do with that. He was with them on land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 It is possible that the man was on one of the three ships used by the Indian legion. The ships could have been under the controle of the Free Indian authorities and thus would wear the unit shield.What 3 ships? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) :speechless1: Once again Gordon finds a gobsmacker-Given my almost complete ignorance of this subject area (I have read a few secondary books) I would guess that either:(a) the man was an "ethnic Indian" (Aryan: in NAZI parlance) who had German citizenship and served in the Kreigsmarine after possibly a merchant seaman's' career.....or/and....(b) a German W/O (Sonderfuhrer) or officer who was attached to the FreiesIndien unit as a liaison/interpreter for some length of time.....possibly part of the navy staff at Toulon?Just a guess.I can not wait to see the answer (and see an article on this piece, perhaps Gordon and Ed could collaborate in such scholarship?). :cheers: Edited December 2, 2008 by Ulsterman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 (b) a German W/O (Sonderfuhrer) or officer who was attached to the FreiesIndien unit as a liaison/interpreter for some length of time.....possibly part of the navy staff at Toulon?Close, but not quite.The patch belonged to a naval officer Horst Albinus serving in France. After the invasion when many of the naval ports were in danger of being cut off, their occupants were order to form a "fortress" and hold out to the last bullet.There was an exception however, trained U-Boat personnel who were still desperately needed. As Albinus had just completed a U-Boat Watch Officer's course he was ordered to make all possible efforts to reach safe German held territory and issued with the usual letter requiring all/any military units to assist him.Albinus, wearing field grey naval uniform set off and found the nearest Wehrmacht unit which could offer assistance was Infanterie Regiment 950, the "Indian Legion". Albinus was temporarily attached to it whilst it moved through France and told to wear the unit sleeve patch which he did until reaching safe territory at Belfort.He is the only known Kriegsmarine officer to have worn the Freies Indien sleeve patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Fascinating. It sounds quite consistent with what I have been told by suirvivors and read in the POW debriefs about those chaotic final days of the AHF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WAR LORD Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 They were blockade breakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesredep Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Hello!GordonInteresting tread.Is there any photo of these Kriegsmarine officer ?All the best Nesredep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 They were blockade breakers.But hardly part of the AHF or the Free India Centre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Very cool! A U-Boat veteran and a FI vet. Imagine that uniform!Again-HINT! HINT!...it would make a REALLY interesting article. Thanks for posting. By the way, was that his original patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 LOVE the intellectual banter!LOVE the fact that this diamond in the roughscenario was not lost to father time!i'd love to know more about this man and his circumstances.thanks for a most interesting thread!joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WAR LORD Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 They were used to transport the Indians. They were diguised as nutural shiping. German and Indian crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 They were used to transport the Indians. They were diguised as nutural shiping. German and Indian crew.Do you have additional information or evidence for this? I'd be very interested. But transport the Indians where? Most POWs had already been shipped across the Med by the Italians anyway before the Germans talked their way into custody of many of them. The AHF veterans I have interviewed went by train wherever they went (and then at the end of the war walked toward Switzerland until they were captured). The plan was to shift them by air from Europe to Afghanistan (have seen some of the airstrips) and then para-drop them into India. But then Stalingrad happened.(Bose and Rahman going to Singapore don't count, but they went by submarine anyway, half German half Japanese.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 This is the most interesting thread I have read in a while!! Thank you for sharing this treasure with us. Are there any photos of the officer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 The patch in post #1 is the actual piece worn by Albinus and donated by him to the Archiv. I only came across it on the last night I was there, along with his letter decribing the circumstances. There may well be a photo of him in the Archiv somewhere but sadly I didn't have time to do a search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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