Imperial Russia Post yourImperial russian orders and badges

[Chuck In Oregon]

That's about it. Also the medals of St. George (the four-classed version, post 1878) were numbered.

It's nice too see this new forum, I too hope it grows. The imperial Russian award system is most interesting, and in my opinion these orders - especially those made pre-1914 - are amongst the most beautiful around. Too bad they command such high prizes that I can't afford buying them. Well.. maybe some day.. until then I'll have to settle for looking them in pictures.

Nice examples, gentlemen.

Pete

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PeteA

Is it your contention that all St. George Crosses had to be numbered to be legitimate? Are you sure?

Consider that it was common for private masters to make St. George Crosses on special order that were not numbered. These were worn as if they had come from government stock, assuming the wearer was entitled to the award, of course. Also, I think the base metal crosses were not well received and some soldiers, especially officers, bought precious metal versions with their own funds, if they had any.

Was it not also the case that very late-war Turkish Front "Soldiers Committee" St. George Crosses were not numbered?

Thus, might not there be examples that were legitimate but not numbered?

I think it is likely that not all authentic awarded St. George Crosses were numbered. However, I freely admit my ignorance here, and I do not claim to be an expert of any kind, merely a curious collector.

Chuck

[Pete A]

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PeteA

Is it your contention that all St. George Crosses had to be numbered to be legitimate? Are you sure?

Consider that it was common for private masters to make St. George Crosses on special order that were not numbered. These were worn as if they had come from government stock, assuming the wearer was entitled to the award, of course. Also, I think the base metal crosses were not well received and some soldiers, especially officers, bought precious metal versions with their own funds, if they had any.

Was it not also the case that very late-war Turkish Front "Soldiers Committee" St. George Crosses were not numbered?

Thus, might not there be examples that were legitimate but not numbered?

I think it is likely that not all authentic awarded St. George Crosses were numbered. However, I freely admit my ignorance here, and I do not claim to be an expert of any kind, merely a curious collector.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

neither can I claim to be any kind of an expert, nor hardly even a proper collector.. and keeping in mind that I have never owned a St. George cross, here goes nothing..

First of all, I also think that not all the official St. George crosses were numbered. Anything is possible, especially after 1917. But for me the number (assuming that it matches the award rolls) is one proof of originality.

The crosses and medals of St. George were awarded to the recipients by the Russian government. Of course, the recipient could purchase a privately made piece too.

For example, the recipient in the need of money could sell his gold cross and purchase a duplicate one, made out of bronze. As in the same way a recipient who was decorated with a bronze cross (war-time material reduction, after October 1916) could purchase a golden one, if he had the money. But since this was an award for the other ranks, I'd say that the first option was more common.

But the thing being, like you said, that whether you obtained a totally new cross, or had your old one duplicated, you needed to have the provenance that you were entitled for the cross. And if you had the provenance, as far as I know, you also had the number. And why would the jeweller not engrave/stamp that number on these privately made crosses too?

On your comment about officers purchasing St. George crosses, I know that those "Soldiers Committees" awarded these crosses to some officers, is this what you mean? Or a case where an EM/NCO was promoted to officer, but naturally kept wearing his St George(s) after that?

By the way, here is a good, but a bit unstable site about St. George crosses, maybe more information can be found there: http://nubirus.chat.ru/HomepageEnglish.htm

Regards,

Pete

[Chuck In Oregon]

Good Morning Pete

First, thank you for the web site reference. I have several in my "Favorites" folder but I didn't have that one.

I have one numbered silver St. George Cross with absolutely no provenance. It came from another collector. I have a gold unnumbered example with a good provenance as told by the family from whom I bought it. Of course, anyone can make up a story, but I tend to believe the family histories when I hear them in the first person.

I also have a group that includes an un-numbered gold example from a titled Georgian family who stated that the recipient definitely did purchase that example. Yet, I have a soldier's committee example with ribbon and leaves, awarded to a young officer, that is numbered.

I don't quite know what to make of all this. My limited experience is that there were more unnumbered examples than I might previously have thought. I know that owing an example does not imply knowledge of any sort, and I claim none. I have stopped asking questions of the "Why would they ... " nature, because I simply have too many of them.

Thank you for your thought-provoking response.

Chuck

[Guest Rick Research]

Russian (Soviet) serial numbers are a bit of a "fixation" with me, for dating undocumented awards--

a specific thread on the George Crosses and Medals with any know approximate numbers range that would distinguish, say, Russo-Japanese numbers from WW1 would be most welcome!

There was no Soviet subforum here 6 months ago either. We built it, and they came, to paraphrase "The Field of Dreams."

To the growth and expansion of the Imperial Russian/Civil War subforum!

[GeorgeCL]

Here are some of the reverse of badges as requested..

George

[GeorgeCL]

French maker reverse of star..

George

[Josef Rietveld]

This beautifull breaststar of the one-class Alexander Newsky-Order walked through my collection in 2005 . I mean i bought it for little money. Only weeks ago some other collector made an offer i could not resist and the Newsky was gone. I have been told the star is of european, probably french manufacture and dates arround 1850/60. No markers mark, no hallmarks made of silver and gold

haynau

[Josef Rietveld]

Details

haynau

[Josef Rietveld]

Deails

haynau

[Josef Rietveld]

details

haynau

[GeorgeCL]

What a beautiful example..

I agree, French in maker and the dating of the 1890's sounds correct..

i wish i had been the one to get it from you..

Thanks for posting

George

[Mathomhaus]

I would like to raise a question relative to the bronze gilt Imperial Russian oirder insignia that have been on the market since the early 1990's.

1. A bit of background: I have a large number of books on Faberge, many of which have chapters devoted to the hallmarks that that company used to mark their products. Even though I know that their marks were struck into the surface of the items, I have noticed that a number of the reference pictures - due to a quirk of the raking light used to make the detail of each hallmark stand out - actually make the mark look like it's somehow raised above the surface of the object.

2. Now to specifics: the majority of St. Anne and St. Stanislaus crosses made of bronze gilt that I've seen are marked Eduard and the name (along, sometimes, with other marks such as single letters) is on a small rectangle raised above the surface of the cross.

3. Here's my proposition: that dies to make copies of imperial russian orders were cut by someone, post-1918, who, working from photos, mistook the nature of the Eduard hallmark - perhaps in a reference photo - and cut his die with the hallmark raised above rather than sunk into the surface of the metal.

I spent a couple of weeks in Russia last summer and was interested to note that many "high-end" gift shops and some museums, too, were busily flogging copies of virtually every degree of every Imperial Russian order. I did not examine any of them close-up because they all seemed to be made with acryillic enamel and were downright clunky in appearance...

So , what I'm wondering is this: could there have been an earlier generation of Imperial copies made of bronze gilt and with hot enamel that were designed to be sold in gift shops and that those souvenir awards are what we were buying in the early nineties because we assumed that they were late WW I production? (After all, most everyone knows how the WW I combattant nations pulled the plug on the non-essential use of gold and silver during that war - so order insignia made of bronze gilt seemed to make sense...)

Jim

[Vatjan]

Russian (Soviet) serial numbers are a bit of a "fixation" with me, for dating undocumented awards--

a specific thread on the George Crosses and Medals with any know approximate numbers range that would distinguish, say, Russo-Japanese numbers from WW1 would be most welcome!

That would indeed be a terrific idea. I for one am desperately looking for info on the serial number range of the St George medals and crosses the Belgian Auto-canon regiment received during world war 1.

I already know they received 104 awards in total, crosses and medals mixed. Apparantly the medals are not numbered, I have seen 1 in a private collection and have reliable info from the Belgian Army Museum.

I have no info on the crosses though.

Let's go for it

Jan

[Bob Hunter]

Some very remarkable pieces, gentlemen. Thank you for sharing them.

[Chuck In Oregon]

Some very remarkable pieces, gentlemen. Thank you for sharing them.

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Hello Bob

I've got a few things due to arrive Tuesday that I think you'll like. I'm pretty sure that one of them is uncatalogued and completely unknown in the west. Stay tuned and I'll post most of them.

Meantime everyone, have a safe and happy 2006 and thank you for your company here.

Chuck

[Stogieman]

OK, where's the new goodies? More, more, more please! ;>)

[Chuck In Oregon]

OK, where's the new goodies? More, more, more please! ;>)

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OK, stop panting. I've got more to share but I have been way busy lately. The first group I'm going to share will be Soviet, but you'll like it anyway. Maybe on Saturday, if I can clear the time.

BTW, my buddy is still negotiating on the attributed gold badge of the first commander of the Caucasus Air Fleet. I plan to go over in the spring and I hope to bring it home with me. With gold at over $560, prices are really getting ridiculous.

Chuck

[Igor Ostapenko]

Not order, but ...

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1609

[Igor Ostapenko]

Russian St. George awards

All receipients - Romanian Soldiers .

One - for Russo-Turkish War 1877-78 ,

another - for WWI .

Some another my crosses

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6381

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6380

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2022

[Igor Ostapenko]

reverses of awards

[GeorgeCL]

Wonderful crosses Igor!

Interesting attachment loop on the first St George cross you posted.

I never saw one like that..

Thanks For Posting

George

[Igor Ostapenko]

These crosses ( from Napoleonic wars ) very rare .

"My" Graf receive this cross in 1815 y. !

Edited March 7, 2006 by Igor Ostapenko

[Igor Ostapenko]

And one more St.George cross for Prussian Soldier .

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1636

For Franco-Prussian 1870 War .

400 Prussians receive St. George crosses for Bravery

Edited March 7, 2006 by Igor Ostapenko

[Igor Ostapenko]

And one more "my" Germany .

Medals group with Russian medal "For Zeal"

Edited March 7, 2006 by Igor Ostapenko

[Igor Ostapenko]

French Awards group with Russian St George cross .

Receipient -

Marechal des logis Bellet Henri Felix from 6 regiment de Hussards

Receive Russian cross and Croix de Guerre in 1915 ,

Order of Legion d'Honneur (chevalier) in 1923 - lieutenant 156 Inf. Reg .

Another British St. George Awards 1915 -

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6485

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6439

Edited March 10, 2006 by Igor Ostapenko