Refugee, Resister, Rule Breaker

[Guest Rick Research]

Today's contributrion number two from the Traveling Museum -- living dangerously as The Island buttons down for the imminent double whammy of two blizzards after the Great Anecdotal Global Warming Storm which devastated The Mainland last week--

There are a number of VERY interesting aspects to this medal bar, which has returned to its ice-bound home.

In immaculate condition, as any medal bar SHOULD be:

We had discussed recently why it seems that there are never Wrong Albert 1st pattern Albert Orders when the Corrected Albert didn't appear until 1876. Well, lo and behold, here is one today. More on that below.

The second thing you should notice is that one of the Hanoverian Centenary Medals is present in next to last place... and NO 1897 Kaiser Wilhelm I Centenary Medal!

The Hanoverian Jubilee is the 21 April 1804/1904 version for surviving members of the Hanoverian unit which became "Prussian" Pioneer Battalion 10.

I cannot explain the absence of the Centenary Medal... directly. It SHOULD be on there, as this officer was a veteran of 1870/71. But he WAS a Hanoverian-- his Kingdom conquered and submerged into Prussia by the aforementioned "William the Great." Groschupf himself was obviously a military refugee who got to Saxony and resumed his army career there

hoping for revenge and a restoration from one of Prussia's traditional enemies? :catjava:

[Guest Rick Research]

First feast yer eyes on this magnificent Wrong Albert Knight with Swords (variously abbreviated as "SA3bX" and "SA3aX" depending on later class/design changes) Note the characteristic sword hilts design as well as the bearded portrait bust:

WHY don't we see "more" of these?

1) There were only 478 awarded, for 1866 and 1870/71.

2) When the mortifyingly embarassing news got out that the wrong Long Dead Ruler's bust had been selected and that was corrected in 1876-- presumably most of the recipients politely exchanged their Wrong Alberts for the Corrected Albert-- though nothing statutory REQUIRED that.

3) In 1914 only 106 Saxon recipients were still alive, including this fellow. 11 had received theirs in 1866 and 48/47 in 1870/71 respectively. Most of the non-natives probably got away with not returning their Orders, but for Saxons, when the holder died, the Order was returned to the Orders Chancery and... refurbished or melted.

So while 478 were bestowed, numbers theoretically available in the 21st century are SUBSTANTIALLY lower--than even 1914's remnant. THAT's why.

Our fellow was one of the 47 who got his in 1871.

And how do we know THAT?

Because the Hanoverian Langensalza Medal in last place is NAMED on the rim.

[Guest Rick Research]

" C GROSCHUPF" it says.

Carl (Karl) Anton Maximilian Wilhelm Gottfried Groschupf was, lucky for us, the ONLY member of his family at the battle of Langensalza.

Here he is on Glenn's newly discovered Roll of 1870 Iron Cross recipients (available on CD)

Number 11343 = Royal Saxon Premierlieutenant Groschupf of K.S. Pionier Bataillon 12.

[Guest Rick Research]

And in a wonderful indication of WHY the Life Of A Research Gnome Is Not An Easy One...

his entry in the 1908/09 German Orders Almanac--

This reveals that he was born in Essen bei Wittlage on 21 August 1841 and was a retired Oberstleutnant (last in K.S. Inf Rgt 133) living at Lindenaustra?e 7, Dresden.

It also shows him holding the automatic 1870/71 survivor's 1897 Centenary Medal and one of the unspecified Hanoverian Centenary Medals, but NOT the Langensalza Medal.

What we have here are-- the random submissions and period errors of a vanity press publication which printed what it got from people paying to be listed-- and sometimes submitters and/or publisher made mistakes/omissions. :banger:

[Guest Rick Research]

The 1914 Saxon State Handbook lists living native recipients of Saxon Orders by the YEAR in which they were decorated, which is how we know--without award documents--when Groschupf got his.

And here he is, still very much alive, in the listing of retired officers thoughtfully appended at the back of the 1914 Saxon Rank List--

And that is the end of what I can find on Lieutenant Colonel Groschupf. I'm glad his splendid medal bar came by for a visit! If anyone can add details to his military career in Hanover or Saxony or has numbers awarded of his version of the Hanoverian Jubilee, additional data would be most welcome! Remember-- I am NOT the Most Fortunate Of Owners. I am only the Operaator of The Magic Epson Scanner.

And here were a pair of earlier Wrong Albert visitors

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=29651&hl=Albert

I am amazed to have had the good fortune to see and handle THREE DIFFERENT examples of these in 2008-- and probably won't ever see another!

[VtwinVince]

Fantastic spange. I agree on the analysis of the missing Centennar-Medaille, however, although the inscription says "Wilhelm der Grosse Deutscher Kaiser", he was, in fact, never referred to by Germans as "Wilhelm der Grosse". The implication of the inscription is that he was a great emperor, not "the Great". As we all know, the only German king of the modern era to have been granted this title by posterity was Friedrich II.

[Steve K.]

A nice combination of Saxony and Hannover on a beautiful bar for a 1870/1866 veteran! I think this is a stunning bar...one of the best I've seen!

[Glenn J]

Rick,

Herr Groschupf is shown in the 1866 Hannoverian Army List as a Premier-Lieutenant in the Ingenieur-Corps with a Patent of 27.5.65. He was taken into the Saxon Army and initially served with the Royal Saxon Pionier-Bataillon (Dresden). I have attached a scan from the 1885 vollst?ndige Anciennet?ts-Liste of 1885. This shows a couple of interesting details: One - his Patent as a Premier-Lieutenant in the Saxon Army was nearly two years less senior with a seniority date of 14.4.67. Secondly as at the publication date of this list he had held only charakteristierte or the brevet rank of Major for some six years (like many of his contemporaries) even though serving in an active duty regiment. I do not have his Patent date as a substantive Major.

Regards

Glenn

[Motorhead]

Rick,is it possible to get a good pic of the 1870 Ek2?

Micha

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks Glenn!

A "good" scan, Micha? You don't like the ones I made?

Sorry-- visited, scanned, gone back home.

[Motorhead]

I meant a "cutout" like the Albert knight with swords from the original scan-My question is just because I can' see the details on the EK,and if it's not the awarded piece it's a "Spangenst?ck"....and you know the discussions around them(mostly from the dealers..).I don't have any doubts about the medal bar here so if it's a Spangenst?ck it would be the perfect reference to identify one of the variations!

Micha

[saschaw]

Here's one more, unfortunally not from Hannoverian but "only" a Prussian: Oberleutnant Kreuzwendedich von Waldow, LGR 8 with his 1870/71 Albrecht3X. Quite funny christian name, have it as well from Glenn's EK list...

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Before this thread fades away, I noticed something on this bar that I would like to bring to your attention. There is a detail here that I have wondered about for many years and am hoping that someone might have some insight or information regarding it.

Specifically, I am referring to the ribbon on the Hannover Jubilee medal. If you look at the obverse, it?s stripes give it the appearance of a faded ?Red Eagle? ribbon. On the reverse side, where the colors are truer, the stripes are really a darker, almost brownish red.

Now, over the years I have seen a number of these medals. Single pieces almost always have the ?Red Eagle? ribbon (left below) with examples of the ?brown/red? ribbon (right below) turning up on rare occasion. At the same time, on mounted groups the opposite seems to occur, with the ?brown/red? ribbon being in the majority.

Both Nimmergut?s magnum opus and B?nderkatalog indicate that the ?Red Eagle? ribbon is correct for the various Hannover Jubilee medals. Citing another source, Hessenthal-Schreiber describes the side stripes on the ?Red Eagle? ribbon as being ?orangegelben? and the stripes an the Hannover Jubilee medals as being ?r?tlich-orangefarbigen?. My German is not good enough to really differentiate between the two.

Is there a significant difference? If so does this difference follow my observations and instinct that the ?brown/red? ribbon is correct ? Any opinions and information are most welcome.

Thank you and best wishes,

Wild Card

[Glenn J]

Sascha,

a biography of Hauptmann v. Waldow.

Regards

Glenn

[Glenn J]

Part two

[saschaw]

Thank you, Glenn!

:cheers:

[Deruelle]

Hi Rick,

Here is some date for your friend who has this very nice medal bar

SA3X, 28 March 1871,

EK2, 19 January 1873,

Eichenblattspange 25, 1895,

70-71 DKM, 1871,

HJ, April 1904,

HLM, 1866,

PZM, March 1897.

Christophe