Order of the British Empire

[jshorter]

Hi Everyone!

I don't have any reference books on British Orders (just medals), so I am asking what the exact name (rank, class, etc.) is of my Order of the British Empire?

Also, it is engraved "J. A. Ferguson " on the pin back, and "J. A. F. 1919" of the reverse of the Order, plus other mint marks. Can anyone give me any specifics on them?

THANK YOU!!!!

Jason

[jshorter]

[JBFloyd]

Assuming it's gilt, it's the Order of the British Empire, officer (OBE), first type, civil division.

A Major John Alexander Ferguson received an OBE. Born 2 February 1880. He was Registrar of the HIgh Court, Lahore. In WWI, he had been a captain, 5th Punjab Light Horse, Indian Defence Force. He was also the Secretary for the Punjab of the Second Indian War Loan.

As a civil division award, it probably related to his court position, although certainly could have included his War Loan work.

[Guest Rick Research]

He's not in the British 1935 edition of "Who's Who?"

[peter monahan]

A Major John Alexander Ferguson received an OBE. Born 2 February 1880. He was Registrar of the HIgh Court, Lahore. In WWI, he had been a captain, 5th Punjab Light Horse, Indian Defence Force. He was also the Secretary for the Punjab of the Second Indian War Loan.

The Indian Defence Force was the Indian equivalent of the Territorial Army which, in this context meant Europeans only, although I believe some members of several "Railway" battalions were Eurasian or what the authorities called "mixed race" - mostly Goan Christians I think.

The Teaplanters Rifles is one of my favourite IDF units, although one must also recall the WWII service of the Calcutta Light Horse, aka the "Calcutta Tight Horse". It was alleged for decades that the IDF system was mostly a way for British-Indians to subsidized the cost of their polo ponies, and certainly far more time was spent on playing fields and in clubs than in rigourous training for modern warfare. While The IDF did play a role during the two world wars and in "aid to the civil powers" much of its history reminds me of a quote (by someone wiiter than I) that the Britsh Empire was in fact "a vast system of public relief for the English upper classes!

OTOH, a small group of the Calcutta LH distinguished themselves inWWII by - completely without official knowledge or permission - took it upon themselves to sneak into Portugese Goa, the colony of a neutral power, and attempt to sink a freighter they believed was providing aid and assistance to German surface raiders supposed to be operating in the Indian Ocean. Quite a saga, and immortalized in a book I received many years ago from fellow member Michael Johnson.

[Ed_Haynes]

A nice example of a privately named OBE.

Peter has done a good job of surveying the IDF. Soon, there will be a serious book dealing with them.

[Riley1965]

A nice example of a privately named OBE.

Peter has done a good job of surveying the IDF. Soon, there will be a serious book dealing with them.

ANOTHER BOOK?!!! I can't wait!!! Peter, Thanks for the explanation!!!

Doc

[Riley1965]

A nice example of a privately named OBE.

Peter has done a good job of surveying the IDF. Soon, there will be a serious book dealing with them.

I still need to add an OBE to my collection. I've always liked this one.

Doc

[Robin Lumsden]

'For God and the Empire'.

Oh...............why did we give it all away?

I'm surprised the governing muppetry hasn't abolished this 'politically incorrect' Order.

[Ed_Haynes]

Someone with a sense of hiumor must want to keep it. It is quite a laugh.

"Give it away"? More humor?

It is, however, an absolutely FASCINATING order. Galloway's book is first-rate!

Edited February 3, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[Mike Huxley]

'For God and the Empire'.

Oh...............why did we give it all away?

I'm surprised the governing muppetry hasn't abolished this 'politically incorrect' Order.

How right you are Robin, muppetry is the exact description I would use.

But I think they have given OUR heratige away already.

Thats why we have European workers taking OUR jobs from us and Briitan has no HOME produced manufacturing left to talk about. All foriegn owned companes here now.

Mike

Edited February 3, 2009 by Mike Huxley

[jagwca]

The adventures of the Calcutta Light Horse have been immortalized in the movie "The Sea Wolves" with Gregory Peck David Niven and Roger Moore in the lead rolls based on James Lessor's book "Raiding Party"produced by Euan Lloyd directed by Andrew McLaglen ( the son of actor Victor and WW1 flying ace)a dvd is available.

John

[Robin Lumsden]

"Give it away"? More humor?

Well, I don't think it's funny.

Giving this lot away was a tragedy...................for them as well as us.

It wasn't taken from us...............we gave it away.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Robin Lumsden

[Ed_Haynes]

Back on topic . . .

A nice medal and the unofficial naming (probably legitimate) makes it possible to seek the recommendation. If he is who we think he is, there's probably a recommendation in the archives (in New Delhi). There was a very small Indian allocation of the various BE classes.

[Robin Lumsden]

Sorry Ed.

I slipped into 'grumpy old man' mode there for a moment.

:banger:

[James Hoard]

The Indian Defence Force was the Indian equivalent of the Territorial Army which, in this context meant Europeans only, although I believe some members of several "Railway" battalions were Eurasian or what the authorities called "mixed race" - mostly Goan Christians I think.

The Teaplanters Rifles is one of my favourite IDF units, although one must also recall the WWII service of the Calcutta Light Horse, aka the "Calcutta Tight Horse". It was alleged for decades that the IDF system was mostly a way for British-Indians to subsidized the cost of their polo ponies, and certainly far more time was spent on playing fields and in clubs than in rigourous training for modern warfare. While The IDF did play a role during the two world wars and in "aid to the civil powers" much of its history reminds me of a quote (by someone wiiter than I) that the Britsh Empire was in fact "a vast system of public relief for the English upper classes!

Good Lord what a lot of urban myths abound in your post.

One has to be careful about equating the IDF with the TA. Each of the regular IA regiments had Territorial battalions to which Indians belonged as officers and men. The IDF were really a reserve force in case of the second mutiny which never came. Even though the IDF were mostly composed of Europeans, several units in the more cosmopolitan areas of India included Anglo-Indians, Parsees and even a few Royals from Indian princely states.

There was no Teaplanters Rifles in the IDF. There was the Ceylon Planters Rifle Corps, but they were not part of the IDF nor was Ceylon ever part of India.

I don't know about English upper classes. Mostly British "middling classes" would be a better description. People who could only afford to lead an upper class lifestyle in the empire, never at home.

Cheers,

James

[paul wood]

Good Lord what a lot of urban myths abound in your post.

One has to be careful about equating the IDF with the TA. Each of the regular IA regiments had Territorial battalions to which Indians belonged as officers and men. The IDF were really a reserve force in case of the second mutiny which never came. Even though the IDF were mostly composed of Europeans, several units in the more cosmopolitan areas of India included Anglo-Indians, Parsees and even a few Royals from Indian princely states.

There was no Teaplanters Rifles in the IDF. There was the Ceylon Planters Rifle Corps, but they were not part of the IDF nor was Ceylon ever part of India.

I don't know about English upper classes. Mostly British "middling classes" would be a better description. People who could only afford to lead an upper class lifestyle in the empire, never at home.

Cheers,

James

Ferguson was gazetted a 2nd Lieut in the Punjab Light Horse 6 September 1918, O.B.E. New Years Honours 1919. He arrived in India in 1904 having qualified in the exams of 1903. He was upgraded to C.B.E. Kings Birthday Honours 1935 (Indian Civil Service Commissioner Rawalpindi division, Punjab). Also entitled to C.I.E. haven't been able to get a date (See India Civil List 1934) also on the Indian Silver Jubilee medal roll. He would have one named B.W.M. also. So not a bad O.B.E. to own.

All the best,

Paul

[leigh kitchen]

Back on topic . . .......................

And Ed, perhaps it's a touch of Stockholm syndrome, but I'm grateful albeit somewhat surprised that you've steered the thread back on track.

Interesting thread, how easy is it to obtain information from the archives in New Delhi, & is a personal visit required unless you have the necessary contacts?

[Ed_Haynes]

The archives are open to any serious researcher who is willing to jump through a few stupid bureaucratic hoops. Like most archives, you need to do your own research, their small staff will not do a demanding researcher's work for them.

If I were there, I could get the recomendation within a day. I know right where the Foreign Department indexes live. None of this sort of thing was copied on to London. Unfortunately, all the provincial-level honours files were targeted for destruction prior to 15 August 1947.

[James Hoard]

Ferguson was gazetted a 2nd Lieut in the Punjab Light Horse 6 September 1918, O.B.E. New Years Honours 1919. He arrived in India in 1904 having qualified in the exams of 1903. He was upgraded to C.B.E. Kings Birthday Honours 1935 (Indian Civil Service Commissioner Rawalpindi division, Punjab). Also entitled to C.I.E. haven't been able to get a date (See India Civil List 1934) also on the Indian Silver Jubilee medal roll. He would have one named B.W.M. also. So not a bad O.B.E. to own.

All the best,

Paul

Paul,

I have him listed as CIE 3.6.1935. The CBE may be an error.

Cheers,

James

[paul wood]

Paul,

I have him listed as CIE 3.6.1935. The CBE may be an error.

Cheers,

James

CBE is an error sorry brain not working it should be CIE

Paul

[Michael Johnson]

The CBE is also a beautiful piece, especially on the first pattern ribbon.

[paul wood]

The CBE is also a beautiful piece, especially on the first pattern ribbon.

I totally agree. I have always though in general the type 2 insignia (IE post 1935) to be less aesthetically pleasing. The most beautiful piece of insignia of the Order (in my opinion) is the short lived medal of the British Empire, many of which were given to French or Belgian civilian recipients who assisted the allies during the Great War.

Paul

[jshorter]

Wow!!! Thank you all for the information and the history lesson!!!

Jason

[Alex K]

The CBE is also a beautiful piece, especially on the first pattern ribbon.

I tend to agree

mine attached

regards

Alex